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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Matthew Green‏ @matthew_d_green 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @N8Fear @taviso and

      Yes. The high-end criminals will absolutely adapt to using encryption tools that are opaque to key escrow (see the recent arrests around PhantomSecure) and the government will go back to using 0days on them. Key escrow is for the dumb criminals.

      1 reply 0 retweets 12 likes
    2. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @matthew_d_green @N8Fear and

      I think we agree that today, you can just use 0day to achieve, more or less, everything you would want to achieve with key escrow. It would bother me if you're arguing that is acceptable, because hoarding 0day puts people at risk.

      2 replies 0 retweets 8 likes
    3. Ryan Hurst‏Verified account @rmhrisk 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @matthew_d_green and

      To be fair building in backdoors also puts people at risk.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    4. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @rmhrisk @matthew_d_green and

      Sure. I don't like key escrow, but arguing for more 0day hoarding as a substitute seems like arguing to protect the ideological purity of cryptography rather than less risk.

      4 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Matthew Green‏ @matthew_d_green 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @rmhrisk and

      My point is that 0day hoarding is absolutely inevitable. No matter how many key escrow systems you mandate. There will always be an abundance of criminals that don’t use the key escrow system (which right now is as simple as downloading an app) or who just store data locally.

      2 replies 1 retweet 15 likes
    6. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @matthew_d_green @rmhrisk and

      It's not inevitable at all, the government is big enough to move markets and a shift in policy can drastically change the risks people are exposed to. I'm not in favour of key escrow, but encouraging more government exploit usage is even worse.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    7. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @matthew_d_green and

      Let me clarify something, are you in favour of the *results* of key escrow (e.g. state access to private data), so long as something other than key escrow is used to achieve that?

      3 replies 2 retweets 1 like
    8. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @daveaitel and

      i might be in the minority with this controversial opinion, but i would be in favour of eradicating the 0day market if it were an option — however, it is *tolerable* in comparison to key escrow systems because it's a law of nature and doesn't itself increase attack surface 😦

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
    9. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @saleemrash1d @daveaitel and

      interesting thanks, but the counter argument is that while it doesn't *increase* attack surface - a policy change (perhaps tweaking VEP, or something) can get vulnerabilities fixed that are being abused by adversaries. That is a positive thing, right?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    10. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @daveaitel and

      key escrow isn't an alternative to 0days, so no government would give up their exploit capability: - you can't target smart criminals that move to "illegal encryption" - you lose other capabilities that aren't at all related to encrypted communications

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @saleemrash1d @daveaitel and

      I know how 0days work, the question is whether it's acceptable to encourage increasing the adoption of exploitation in exchange for dropping attempts at building key escrow. I have a problem with that.

      10:01 AM - 15 Dec 2019
      3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Ryan Hurst‏Verified account @rmhrisk 15 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @saleemrash1d and

          There is a difference between “encouraging zero day adoption” and the false premise that key escrow would eliminate or even reduce zero day hoarding.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @rmhrisk @saleemrash1d and

          Nobody wants to hoard 0day, because your enemies can use them against you. They do so because they balance that risk against the value of that additional capability, if that capability reduces in value, the calculus changes. Explain to me how that won't reduce hoarding?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. 27 more replies
        1. New conversation
        2. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d 15 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @daveaitel and

          but no one is encouraging an increase in the adoption of exploitation — it will happen whether or not we want it to, and it will happen whether or not we build a key escrow system.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @saleemrash1d @daveaitel and

          Tavis Ormandy Retweeted qwertyoruiop

          Multiple people are arguing that, how else should I interpret this?https://twitter.com/qwertyoruiopz/status/1205941285162536960 …

          Tavis Ormandy added,

          qwertyoruiop @qwertyoruiopz
          Replying to @taviso @rmhrisk and 2 others
          i'm strong in favour of 0day, strong against key escrow.
          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. 1 more reply
        1. New conversation
        2. Matthew Hardeman‏ @mdhardeman 15 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @saleemrash1d and

          Actually I think it’s totally acceptable from a lobbying perspective. They aren’t going away without something that looks like an answer. And answers that have them upping the defense budget sell well. At least you can fight 0day development on tech terms.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Matthew Hardeman‏ @mdhardeman 15 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @mdhardeman @taviso and

          Proposal that gives some influential senators ammunition to demand several billion annually for cyber warriors back in their districts gets the deal done to ditch backdoors? Take it. They love pork like that.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation

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