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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @idafanatic @saleemrash1d and

      Yeah, I don't want key escrow, but it does bother me that some vocal opponents appear to be encouraging an increase in state 0day usage as an alternative.

      4 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    2. N8Fear‏ @N8Fear 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @idafanatic and

      Do you think that they'll reduce state 0day usage if they have key escrow? They'll hoard 0days anyways, just because they don't know when the ones they have get known and therefore are "burnt". Also: there is no secure way of implementing escrow...

      3 replies 1 retweet 1 like
    3. Matthew Green‏ @matthew_d_green 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @N8Fear @taviso and

      Yes. The high-end criminals will absolutely adapt to using encryption tools that are opaque to key escrow (see the recent arrests around PhantomSecure) and the government will go back to using 0days on them. Key escrow is for the dumb criminals.

      1 reply 0 retweets 12 likes
    4. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @matthew_d_green @N8Fear and

      I think we agree that today, you can just use 0day to achieve, more or less, everything you would want to achieve with key escrow. It would bother me if you're arguing that is acceptable, because hoarding 0day puts people at risk.

      2 replies 0 retweets 8 likes
    5. Ryan Hurst‏Verified account @rmhrisk 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @matthew_d_green and

      To be fair building in backdoors also puts people at risk.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    6. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @rmhrisk @matthew_d_green and

      Sure. I don't like key escrow, but arguing for more 0day hoarding as a substitute seems like arguing to protect the ideological purity of cryptography rather than less risk.

      4 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Matthew Green‏ @matthew_d_green 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @rmhrisk and

      My point is that 0day hoarding is absolutely inevitable. No matter how many key escrow systems you mandate. There will always be an abundance of criminals that don’t use the key escrow system (which right now is as simple as downloading an app) or who just store data locally.

      2 replies 1 retweet 15 likes
    8. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @matthew_d_green @rmhrisk and

      It's not inevitable at all, the government is big enough to move markets and a shift in policy can drastically change the risks people are exposed to. I'm not in favour of key escrow, but encouraging more government exploit usage is even worse.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    9. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @matthew_d_green and

      Let me clarify something, are you in favour of the *results* of key escrow (e.g. state access to private data), so long as something other than key escrow is used to achieve that?

      3 replies 2 retweets 1 like
    10. Matthew Green‏ @matthew_d_green 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @rmhrisk and

      So let me answer your first question with a question: if Western governments mandate key escrow, will the government of UAE be able to use it under the UAE’s legal regime? If yes, then I *am* objectively uncomfortable with key escrow. If no, hello lucrative 0day market.

      2 replies 1 retweet 12 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @matthew_d_green @rmhrisk and

      Let's avoid the slippery slope argument (i.e. if one government has key escrow, then they all must) for the purposes of discussion. Do you agree that fixing vulnerabilities is a good thing, or should they be hoarded so that key escrow isn't necessary?

      9:55 AM - 15 Dec 2019
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      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. Matthew Green‏ @matthew_d_green 15 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @rmhrisk and

          It’s not a slippery slope argument. Your thought experiment is that the existence of key escrow could wipe out the 0day demand. I think that won’t happen, and the UAE not having access is one example of why it will not. (And giving access to the UAE seems a bad compromise.)

          3 replies 0 retweets 15 likes
        3. Matthew Green‏ @matthew_d_green 15 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @matthew_d_green @taviso and

          As far as whether hoarding vulnerabilities is “good”, clearly it is not! But I don’t see a plausible mechanism for KE to wipe it out. If we’re just playing “what if” then I still don’t know. It’s an honestly complicated questions with arguments both ways.

          1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
        4. 7 more replies
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        2. Tim Casey‏ @timcva 15 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @matthew_d_green and

          Law makers don’t see it this way. Did you see the Graham senate hearing? They are going to legislate something by this time next year.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Tim Casey‏ @timcva 15 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @timcva @taviso and

          https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/meetings/encryption-and-lawful-access-evaluating-benefits-and-risks-to-public-safety-and-privacy …

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        4. End of conversation

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