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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Ryan Hurst‏Verified account @rmhrisk 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @carrickdb and

      Adobe isn’t a os or hardware platform and Authenticode is shit (saying that as the ex PM for it) the os and boot loader code signing processes are not p12s stored in source control.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @rmhrisk @carrickdb and

      I agree, but it's good enough to defeat FDE today, right?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Ryan Hurst‏Verified account @rmhrisk 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @carrickdb and

      No hardware or OS vendor in a major system I would be irresponsible enough to use the processes used by companies like Adobe to protect Authenticode code signing keys.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Ryan Hurst‏Verified account @rmhrisk 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @rmhrisk @taviso and

      If we say if these OS and hardware vendors reduced their practices to what is used by Adobe for their Authenticode keys which would be insane it would still be worse because of the authentication and signing pipeline needed.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Ryan Hurst‏Verified account @rmhrisk 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @rmhrisk @taviso and

      Check out the Blackhawk talk from two years ago where they talk about how they protect keys for the iPhone; that’s not unique, it’s largely the norm of big providers. Reducing to P12s in source control would be nuts.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @rmhrisk @carrickdb and

      I saw it, I think you're ignoring the build server component. Anyway, you believe that the current state of security for build and package signing is acceptable, right? (I find this surprising, but okay). If the same system was reused for key escrow, would that be secure?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Ryan Hurst‏Verified account @rmhrisk 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @carrickdb and

      I think today’s system is a compromise that works given its use case that is largely acceptable. I think layering the authentication and frequency requirements that would be required for escrow that would no longer be the case.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @rmhrisk @carrickdb and

      Sure, if the frequency was capped somehow, that would be acceptable? Let's say, the law encodes some SLA for vendors that you believe package signing infrastructure can reasonably sustain. I don't know if the law can do that, but for discussion purposes.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Ryan Hurst‏Verified account @rmhrisk 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @carrickdb and

      Rate limiting frequency would need to be one mitigation for sure, doesn’t address the complexity of authorization verification, especially when looking at their supposed SLA goals of a hours to days turn around.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Ryan Hurst‏Verified account @rmhrisk 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @rmhrisk @taviso and

      Consider the efficacy of EV verification today (woefully insufficient even for use) as the best case and this is much harder because it’s a authorization not authentication verification that needs to take place.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @rmhrisk @carrickdb and

      Right, but you believe build infra and package signing to be good enough today. It seems unreasonable to say it has to be more secure than that, otherwise it seems like an idealogical objection rather than a technical one (which is fine too, but you said that's not the reason).

      6:40 PM - 14 Dec 2019
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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        2. Ryan Hurst‏Verified account @rmhrisk 14 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @carrickdb and

          Today bootloaders ans OS files are signed by a limited set of authorized people within the company creating the offering. Not got arbitrary third parties across the globe, those individuals identity, affiliation and entitlement must be verified; this is new.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @rmhrisk @carrickdb and

          That's only partially true, but even if we accept it for discussion, they still just grab those blobs from the build infra, right?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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