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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Ryan Hurst‏Verified account @rmhrisk 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @saleemrash1d @matthew_d_green

      I think that is a fair summation of my position; one is at scale and largely impossible to defend against (legaly compelling) especially on a global scale and the other is natural law and impossible to prevent.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    2. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @rmhrisk @saleemrash1d @matthew_d_green

      I understand, but the counter argument would be there's no way for a government to hoard 0day without putting innocent people at risk (because you can't prevent other people discovering bugs and abusing them). This is why I don't like governments using 0day.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    3. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @rmhrisk @matthew_d_green

      if you can't sell your vulnerabilities to governments, aren't there fewer people looking for them now? so the bugs still aren't getting fixed.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    4. qwertyoruiop‏ @qwertyoruiopz 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @saleemrash1d @taviso and

      there's also an argument to be made that for each time anyone uses an 0day, the risk of 0day being caught ITW increases.

      1 reply 0 retweets 11 likes
    5. qwertyoruiop‏ @qwertyoruiopz 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @qwertyoruiopz @saleemrash1d and

      (so governments making use of 0day might even be a net security positive vs 0days staying dormant until criminals make use of them)

      1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
    6. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @qwertyoruiopz @saleemrash1d and

      I dunno, it's a pretty weak argument, the victim can detect it and then use it to attack other people. That has really happened, e.g. Shadow Brokers.

      1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
    7. qwertyoruiop‏ @qwertyoruiopz 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @saleemrash1d and

      are entities capable of detecting use of such 0day really unable to procure 0day on their own anyway?

      3 replies 1 retweet 10 likes
    8. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @qwertyoruiopz @saleemrash1d and

      In some cases, sure - hard to imagine some terrorist in a cave has access to a 0day broker. To be clear, I absolutely think the military should be able to get access to comms equipment of dangerous people, but... not by putting innocent people at risk.

      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    9. qwertyoruiop‏ @qwertyoruiopz 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @saleemrash1d and

      is some terrorist in a cave able to detect use of 0day and re-weaponize it against others? seems far-fetched. and as long as governments aren't actively planting 0day, i'd assume innocent people were at risk the whole time anyway, but unaware.

      3 replies 0 retweets 8 likes
    10. qwertyoruiop‏ @qwertyoruiopz 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @qwertyoruiopz @taviso and

      i think that 0day use eventually resulting in bugs being patched and making people overall safer as a side-effect is a more likely outcome than our hypothetical terrorist-in-a-cave catching 0day and turning them against innocent people outcome.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @qwertyoruiopz @saleemrash1d and

      It's a nice rationalization, but you can't prevent other people finding the same bug you did, and using it to support a cause that you would find objectionable. I thought your argument was that "maybe someone will see me exploiting it and fix it, so it's better than nothing"?

      11:12 AM - 14 Dec 2019
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      • 𝓢𝓷!𝓹𝓮𝓻 Ryan Hurst
      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. qwertyoruiop‏ @qwertyoruiopz 14 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @saleemrash1d and

          my argument is a bit more than just that, but i do think the likelihood of this happening is higher than the likelihood of overall negative outcomes.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @qwertyoruiopz @saleemrash1d and

          Tavis Ormandy Retweeted Samuel Groß

          We know for sure that independent rediscoveries happen, and even collide with in-the-wild exploits. Doesn't that prove it's more likely than your scenario of harmless while dormant exploits? Here's a recent example,https://twitter.com/5aelo/status/1143548622530895873 …

          Tavis Ormandy added,

          Samuel Groß @5aelo
          Thanks to @coinbase I've had a chance to look at the in-the-wild exploit for the recent Firefox 0day (the RCE) that they caught. Tl;dr: it looks a lot like a bug collision between Fuzzilli and someone manually auditing for bugs. My notes:
          Show this thread
          2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
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