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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @matthew_d_green @rmhrisk

      it sounds like you don't get a choice about the latter though, so you may as well just say "no" to both 😜

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    2. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @saleemrash1d @matthew_d_green @rmhrisk

      Right, it's just a thought experiment. It will never happen, but if the USG committed to only using a lawful key escrow system, it might move the 0day market as billions of dollars fall out of it. Maybe that would have some benefits, but the economics seem complicated. 🤷🏻‍♂️

      3 replies 0 retweets 8 likes
    3. Ryan Hurst‏Verified account @rmhrisk 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @saleemrash1d @matthew_d_green

      Which legal systems? It’s entirely unrealistic to believe it would just be USG (just as it is any would promise and live up to promises not use zero days).

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    4. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @rmhrisk @saleemrash1d @matthew_d_green

      It's not just USG, but they sure are a big player. It would meaningfully move the market for sure. They could promise not to build a key escrow system and do it anyway, so that argument works both ways I think.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Ryan Hurst‏Verified account @rmhrisk 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @saleemrash1d @matthew_d_green

      There is no “market” where governments compete for which one keeps the most promises :)

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    6. Ryan Hurst‏Verified account @rmhrisk 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @rmhrisk @taviso and

      Honestly I also think there are legitimate cases where governments need zero days to do their jobs; if they did keep their empty promise not to use them I would not be happy.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    7. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @rmhrisk @saleemrash1d @matthew_d_green

      That's really interesting, it's not governments accessing data that bothers you, it really is literally the implementation details of that access. I guess that answers my question!

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    8. Ryan Hurst‏Verified account @rmhrisk 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @saleemrash1d @matthew_d_green

      I think that is a fair summation of my position; one is at scale and largely impossible to defend against (legaly compelling) especially on a global scale and the other is natural law and impossible to prevent.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    9. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @rmhrisk @saleemrash1d @matthew_d_green

      I understand, but the counter argument would be there's no way for a government to hoard 0day without putting innocent people at risk (because you can't prevent other people discovering bugs and abusing them). This is why I don't like governments using 0day.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    10. Ryan Hurst‏Verified account @rmhrisk 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @saleemrash1d @matthew_d_green

      Understood, but as a thought experiment would we need to write secure code if everyone agreed not to exploit bugs?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @rmhrisk @saleemrash1d @matthew_d_green

      I think USG dropping out of the 0day market would have a substantial market impact, and move incentives enough to improve security, but this is probably too complex to agree on! For the purpose of discussion, let's just say a treaty is signed or something. 😀

      10:43 AM - 14 Dec 2019
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