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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Matt Austin‏ @mattaustin 30 Nov 2019
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      I wanted to fully test this “Responsible Disclosure” theory so I submitted a one click RCE in Microsoft Teams to #msrc on Sep 01, 2018. It is still open. The disclosure policy of @taviso and others gets bugs fixed. This does not.

      9 replies 67 retweets 220 likes
      Show this thread
    2. Brook Schoenfield‏ @BrkSchoenfield 2 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @mattaustin @taviso

      IMHE, PSIRT MUST always respond and stay engaged. But, arbitrary fix periods fail to take into account the vast range of fix complexities from 1 line of code to a complete redesign. Therein lies the challenge: all fixes are not equal and cannot be treated as such

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 2 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @BrkSchoenfield @mattaustin

      Two things, that's a convenient excuse ("You just don't understand how complex it is", and then the patch is trivial and obvious). Secondly, you can fix your software whenever you like, that should not delay warning the user base about the danger they're exposed to.

      4 replies 1 retweet 11 likes
    4. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 2 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @BrkSchoenfield @mattaustin

      Here's an excellent example, Microsoft literally told customers this bug was too complex to fix in 3 months, but ended up being the trivial oneline check we assumed it would be. https://bugs.chromium.org/p/project-zero/issues/detail?id=1804 …

      1 reply 1 retweet 12 likes
    5. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 2 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @BrkSchoenfield @mattaustin

      You can't tell me the complexity was testing either, because the tests are opensource and they literally just call it with rand() 1000 times. 😂

      3 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
    6. Brook Schoenfield‏ @BrkSchoenfield 2 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @mattaustin

      A single example of a botched fix proves nothing. Sit on the other side contending with a report that is a symptom of a bigger design issue which will take 18 months to truly fix. That 90 day clock ends with a zero day about which user can do nothing. Not pretty

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    7. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 2 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @BrkSchoenfield @mattaustin

      It proves plenty, it proves that vendors are willing to pull out any excuse to not fix vulnerabilities in a timely manner. I've been on both sides of the disclosure process, and see good reason to not just give vendors whatever they ask for.

      2 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
    8. Brook Schoenfield‏ @BrkSchoenfield 2 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @mattaustin

      That’s silly, “vendors”. Have you worked PSIRT for an honourable company? Do it for to see how tricky it can be. There are vendors I wouldn’t work for, ever (dishonest). And vendors who try really hard. Prioritizing isn’t easy, Tavis, it’s bloody difficult.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 2 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @BrkSchoenfield @mattaustin

      Of course I have. The vendor in this case is Microsoft, are they honourable? (Haha, your bio says IOActive, so I assume you're a Microsoft cheerleader 😆)

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    10. Brook Schoenfield‏ @BrkSchoenfield 2 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @mattaustin

      we can learn a lot about the state of appsec ‘art’ from Microsoft. Far from perfect, true. Maddening sometimes. It’s that “state of art” where I want to put my energy cuz basically, we’re all beginners. My 20 years doesn’t make a “mature practice”.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 2 Dec 2019
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      Replying to @BrkSchoenfield @mattaustin

      Remember to take a breath between gulps of that Kool-Aid, I don't want you to drown! 😛

      11:40 AM - 2 Dec 2019
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      5 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Katie Moussouris‏Verified account @k8em0 2 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @BrkSchoenfield @mattaustin

          Tavis & Matt are right. Forcing fixes does work. For them. Things that can’t be fixed w out breaking other functionality require extra time & care, but it can be done in less time than that. Dropping 0day reprioritizes internal teams’ focus tho, so it’s not w out consequences.

          2 replies 3 retweets 11 likes
        3. Katie Moussouris‏Verified account @k8em0 2 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @k8em0 @taviso and

          Internal teams can respond to that reprioritization & additional work by adding resources instead of shooting the messengers with the whole “responsible” guilting language.

          1 reply 2 retweets 6 likes
        4. 2 more replies
        1. New conversation
        2. Brook Schoenfield‏ @BrkSchoenfield 2 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @mattaustin

          We have tons of data showing that every vulnerability is not equally valuable to attackers. The vast majority reported are never exploited. There exist a rather small minority that widely exploited against general users.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 2 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @BrkSchoenfield @mattaustin

          That is nonsense, we have very limited visibility into what attackers are doing. It's a very vendor-centric position to claim that because we cannot see what attackers are doing, we must assume that they're not doing anything. Then what are they doing with the exploits they buy?

          0 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        4. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Brook Schoenfield‏ @BrkSchoenfield 2 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @mattaustin

          At the same time, PSIRT need to deliver actionable risk analysis in context for users. Both side are at fault in this. Stop picking sides! It doesn’t help.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 2 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @BrkSchoenfield @mattaustin

          It helps plenty, not all sides are equal. I think the multinational trillion dollar corporations can look after their own interests.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        4. End of conversation
        1. Brook Schoenfield‏ @BrkSchoenfield 2 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @mattaustin

          Let me turn this around to challenge researchers to better qualify reports! I’ve seen SO MANY inflated CVSS. (Likewise, their are vendors who routinely deflate) Instead of demonizing vendors, what can you control? The quality of your reports. That’d help.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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        1. Brook Schoenfield‏ @BrkSchoenfield 2 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @mattaustin

          Know the difference between design critique and issues which are very likely to get compromised. These are often not the same. Treating all reports as likely exploits is killing us; PSIRT & patchers are overwhelmed. Research pressure is dysfunctional

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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