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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Dino A. Dai Zovi‏ @dinodaizovi 30 Nov 2019
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      In the debate about publishing n-day PoCs, I’m not reading anyone debating what the value of n should be for fully working PoCs. I’ve personally published vuln details when patch was released, techniques in abstract, but waited over a year for working exploits. Seemed best to me.

      8 replies 7 retweets 46 likes
    2. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 30 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @dinodaizovi

      I think people forget it's not the 90s, exploits are big business, not just trolling Theo. If you have money, you can buy capability, it's an economic decision.

      2 replies 0 retweets 17 likes
    3. Dino A. Dai Zovi‏ @dinodaizovi 30 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @taviso

      If I'm following your point, it's that anyone who wants capability can now use capital to acquire it, so release of N-day PoCs is immaterial to that? I don't think criminal groups could buy NSO's products and researchers wanting to make that kind of thing now go work for NSO/APT.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    4. Dino A. Dai Zovi‏ @dinodaizovi 30 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @dinodaizovi @taviso

      As important targets became harder, it's now a team-sized endeavor and solo basement hackers have trouble producing useful capabilities (this is a good trend overall). Financially motivated criminal groups seem to do more mass-fraud than targeted attacks w/ exploits from my feed.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Dino A. Dai Zovi‏ @dinodaizovi 30 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @dinodaizovi @taviso

      So "attackers" are largely bifurcated into criminals and APTs. Part of the challenge of this debate is that different people think about either attack or defense and of APTs or criminals. Makes it hard to be precise about which group's activities they are trying to hamper.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 30 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @dinodaizovi

      Aren't you doing exactly that? If you care about opportunistic criminals, nday is essentially non existent relative to malware, no?

      1 reply 1 retweet 1 like
    7. Dino A. Dai Zovi‏ @dinodaizovi 30 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @taviso

      I wouldn't say "essential non-existent" because some published exploits seem to enabling ransomware and cryptomining these days (I don't have hard numbers, just anecdotally). Published client-sides can also help NSO-like companies. To me, the only winning move was not to play :).

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    8. Andreas Lindh  🏴‏ @addelindh 30 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @dinodaizovi @taviso

      Didn't @dguido's Exploit Intelligence Project show that this was the case (exploits for bugs with published PoCs quickly ended up in exploit kits) at that time?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 30 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @addelindh @dinodaizovi @dguido

      It's true, but not sure it's that useful an observation. We can't measure the benefit to defenders, but we do know tools are widely used by professionals, for example. I personally get great value from open research, so that's worth something 🤷‍♂️

      12:29 PM - 30 Nov 2019
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. Andreas Lindh  🏴‏ @addelindh 30 Nov 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @dinodaizovi @dguido

          Yeah definitely, also that was in many ways a completely different time. I would personally enjoy seeing more research like this, over time. (yes I know, do it myself etc).

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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