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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Dino A. Dai Zovi‏ @dinodaizovi 30 Nov 2019
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      In the debate about publishing n-day PoCs, I’m not reading anyone debating what the value of n should be for fully working PoCs. I’ve personally published vuln details when patch was released, techniques in abstract, but waited over a year for working exploits. Seemed best to me.

      8 replies 7 retweets 46 likes
    2. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 30 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @dinodaizovi

      I think people forget it's not the 90s, exploits are big business, not just trolling Theo. If you have money, you can buy capability, it's an economic decision.

      2 replies 0 retweets 17 likes
    3. Dino A. Dai Zovi‏ @dinodaizovi 30 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @taviso

      If I'm following your point, it's that anyone who wants capability can now use capital to acquire it, so release of N-day PoCs is immaterial to that? I don't think criminal groups could buy NSO's products and researchers wanting to make that kind of thing now go work for NSO/APT.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    4. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 30 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @dinodaizovi

      Right, the incentives favor attackers, they can make a purely economic decision to build an exploit, so the availability of pocs levels the playing field. N-day exploits are traded for relatively low prices, not sure how NSO are relevant, do they sell nday?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Dino A. Dai Zovi‏ @dinodaizovi 30 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @taviso

      It could be semantics, but n-day still affects a ton of devices in the real world (e.g. Android binder exploit, which was fixed upstream). I only know what I read on twitter about NSO, but I'd assume that some n-day is used in their products (it makes sense to use what works).

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 30 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @dinodaizovi

      It sure does, that's why tens of thousands of professionals use tools like metasploit to hugely benefit security. Is depriving them off tools to barely move the needle on opportunistic attacks a good trade? I don't think so 🤷‍♂️

      12:14 PM - 30 Nov 2019
      • 3 Likes
      • Rene Mayrhofer Sciuridae Hero Sherif Mansour
      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Dino A. Dai Zovi‏ @dinodaizovi 30 Nov 2019
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          Replying to @taviso

          I don't know of a way that data could show either way, so it really comes down to differences in expert opinions and how different individuals want to spend their productive hours.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 30 Nov 2019
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          Replying to @dinodaizovi

          Doesn't the popularity of good quality tools with professionals count as data? If it was without value for defenders, we could show that easily. I can say that my work benefits greatly from access to open research, hard to believe you wouldn't agree with that!

          1 reply 1 retweet 0 likes
        4. 1 more reply
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        2. Sherif Mansour‏ @Kerberosmansour 30 Nov 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @dinodaizovi

          Does it make sense to phase the disclosure in order for defensive tools to first have signatures/known behavioural patterns before disclosuing the PoC public for offensive tools?

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 30 Nov 2019
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          Replying to @Kerberosmansour @dinodaizovi

          No, I don't think so. I prefer the playing field to be leveled as early as possible, but this is too big a discussion for Twitter!

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. End of conversation

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