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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @saleemrash1d @taviso @alexstamos

      if you wait until first detection to whitelist the photo, there's a delay where you can't block the photo (because it could be an innocent photo used as a denial-of-service). this is bad for the victim (photo isn't blocked immediately).

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @saleemrash1d @taviso @alexstamos

      by whitelisting the photos upfront, you can tell the victim "a moderator verified it and now we will immediately remove the photo, when we detect it" in your scenario, you're telling the victim "when we first detect the photo, a moderator will decide whether or not to remove it"

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @saleemrash1d @alexstamos

      In order to generate the hash you need the original photo. Facebook can immediately tell if they have a matching image already, and can moderate it then and there if so. If not, that's good evidence you're the original creator, so block and moderate on first seen.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    4. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @alexstamos

      by moderating there and then, you have delayed the removal process. what if the victim wants to ensure the photo is immediately removed on the first occurrence?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @saleemrash1d @alexstamos

      There is no additional delay, the existing human-review system also requires moderation before removal. The point is the hash solution is objectively better than the "preemptively send us all your nudes" system, not that it's perfect.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @alexstamos

      no, the existing system places the delay at the start. the point at which you can say "all future occurrences of this photo will be removed immediately" is shortly after you upload the photo - in your system, it is shortly after first detection which is a very different promise

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @saleemrash1d @alexstamos

      No it doesn't. If the photo is already being shared when you submit it, it doesn't stop until moderation. That is the same in both systems. If it hasn't been shared yet, it can be blocked first in both systems. The difference is no new people see your nudes until abuse with hash.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @alexstamos

      yes, i am obviously assuming that the image hasn't been shared yet. how does your system allow you to block on first seen? "never seen before" would seem to be a fickle criteria for blocking, but i might be missing something in your system.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @saleemrash1d @alexstamos

      Right, never seen before, but you can prove that you've seen it. I think that's good enough. The software has to be distributed in some protected form, so you can also sign the hashes and verify a classifier said they're nudes before automatic blocking if you like.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @alexstamos

      this is a compelling idea (hash it locally after running a classifier in a trusted execution environment) and i think i missed this point in your original argument. is this practical yet? what needs to happen to make it so?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @saleemrash1d @alexstamos

      I believe it's practical and that I could build it, Alex says it isn't but handwaves away anyone asking why not. So, who knows...

      12:40 PM - 18 Nov 2019
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d 18 Nov 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @alexstamos

          i think there are rough edges: - if your classifier mistakenly decides that a photo shouldn't be automatically blocked, what happens? - i guess you have to rate limit the classifier (depends on the limitations of your TEE); solved by making PoW an input to the classifier?

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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