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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @alexstamos

      This is also the answer we got at the time, "Why don't you do it this way, so that people don't have to send your team their nudes?" "Why don't you do it for us?"...I think that's not a very satisfying answer 🤷🏻‍♂️

      1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
    2. Alex Stamos‏Verified account @alexstamos 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @taviso

      There are a bunch of complications that arise when you actually try to implement this kind of mass image blocking at scale. It is easy to throw stones from the sidelines; if you spent time actually working on the problem you would realize the compromises weren’t arbitrary.

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
    3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @alexstamos

      Let's hear them then, the only problem I've heard you talk about is that people don't want to publish their ImageDNA-like algorithm. There are solutions to that, use SGX or send tamperproof machines to trusted victim advocates to generate the hashes.

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
    4. Alex Stamos‏Verified account @alexstamos 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @taviso

      There has been some movement on the perpetual hashing front, as FB recently published new algorithms based upon more modern techniques that should be a bit more robust. The biggest problem is adversarial reporting to trigger image censorship.https://www.google.com/amp/s/about.fb.com/news/2019/08/open-source-photo-video-matching/amp/ …

      1 reply 1 retweet 7 likes
    5. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @alexstamos

      You already have the image at that point, so no additional sharing has happened. Using your solution, I can send you a picture that isn't a nude, and someone looks at it and sees that it's not a nude. Using this system, you wait for a match and then see it's not a nude. Right?

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    6. Alex Stamos‏Verified account @alexstamos 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @taviso

      Except you have now blocked that image in every private chat on the platform during the content moderation latency. There is effectively an infinite space of perceptual hashes that will probabilistically match a single photo; how do you think this holds up against 8ch*n

      1 reply 1 retweet 8 likes
    7. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @alexstamos

      That doesn't make any sense. They can already submit infinite photos to your human team, do you block them as soon as the images arrive at nudes@fb.com, or do you wait for a moderator to confirm them first? If it's the second, then this is a nonsense excuse.

      3 replies 1 retweet 3 likes
    8. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @alexstamos

      i'm not making a judgement here, but Alex's point makes sense to me if you whitelist the photos upfront, there's an initial delay but you can thereafter immediately block the photo upon detection

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @saleemrash1d @taviso @alexstamos

      if you wait until first detection to whitelist the photo, there's a delay where you can't block the photo (because it could be an innocent photo used as a denial-of-service). this is bad for the victim (photo isn't blocked immediately).

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @saleemrash1d @taviso @alexstamos

      by whitelisting the photos upfront, you can tell the victim "a moderator verified it and now we will immediately remove the photo, when we detect it" in your scenario, you're telling the victim "when we first detect the photo, a moderator will decide whether or not to remove it"

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 18 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @saleemrash1d @alexstamos

      In order to generate the hash you need the original photo. Facebook can immediately tell if they have a matching image already, and can moderate it then and there if so. If not, that's good evidence you're the original creator, so block and moderate on first seen.

      12:02 PM - 18 Nov 2019
      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d 18 Nov 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @alexstamos

          by moderating there and then, you have delayed the removal process. what if the victim wants to ensure the photo is immediately removed on the first occurrence?

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 18 Nov 2019
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          Replying to @saleemrash1d @alexstamos

          There is no additional delay, the existing human-review system also requires moderation before removal. The point is the hash solution is objectively better than the "preemptively send us all your nudes" system, not that it's perfect.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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