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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @tylerni7 @scriptjunkie1 and

      I disagree, you just have to optimize your work differently. Prefer volume over quality, not wasting time improving reliability when you could be finding more bugs, and so on. If it will take you a month to turn a bug into an exploit, calculate if the reward justifies that, etc.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    2. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @tylerni7 and

      If it is one month worth of work to complete an exploit, and in one month you can make 20 baseline crash bugs, then maybe it isn't the optimal decision. Take advantage of the more lucrative programs, the chrome fuzzer reward program for example.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    3. tylerni7‏ @tylerni7 15 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @scriptjunkie1 and

      ....or sell the bugs to brokers who sell to responsible parties and make more money. 20 crashes in Chrome is $40-$100k. Even without escaping the sandbox working RCE is more than that. If do that volume in 6mo-1year, one is comfortable, one is not

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    4. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @tylerni7 @scriptjunkie1 and

      Sure, if you can rationalize leaving a billion users vulnerable to anyone who does the same thing you did - potentially very unpleasant people - you might make slightly more money. No argument there.

      2 replies 1 retweet 1 like
    5. tylerni7‏ @tylerni7 15 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @scriptjunkie1 and

      As much as people like to shit on them, the US Gov also is able to save lives thanks to its offensive cyber programs. They aren't angels who do no wrong, but I think they do net positive. I also don't think bad folks use 0days against billions, only very targeted folks

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    6. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @tylerni7 @scriptjunkie1 and

      That is a dishonest tweet that misrepresents the argument. When you say "It's okay because only sell exploits to the good guys", the problem is you can't stop bad people finding and exploiting the same bug, and *that's* the problem.

      1 reply 1 retweet 1 like
    7. tylerni7‏ @tylerni7 15 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @scriptjunkie1 and

      I get that 100%, I agree selling exploits to folks that don't report means good people are vulnerable to the same bugs. But going and working in an unrelated area (not bug bounties, not p0, not selling to brokers) still leaves bad people able to find those bugs.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. tylerni7‏ @tylerni7 15 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @tylerni7 @taviso and

      I do hope that what most of us do pushes everyone in the right direction to be "more secure". *But* I also think the US Gov and others have legit uses for 0days, and that espionage saves lives. I think it's unfair to paint everyone who agrees with that as unethical.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    9. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @tylerni7 @scriptjunkie1 and

      Here's the problem with that argument, the government has effectively unlimited resources. They can literally drop people with guns out of helicopters. It is not necessary to put innocent people in harm's way, there are other options to achieve the same goals.

      2 replies 1 retweet 1 like
    10. Ben‏ @nimnaij 15 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @tylerni7 and

      It's hard to imagine a scenario in which air-dropping combatants via helicopters is *lower* risk to civilians than the chance of a bad actor conducting exploitation.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @nimnaij @tylerni7 and

      It was an example of just how many options are available. You literally cannot think of *any* way to gather intelligence other than exploits?

      10:20 AM - 15 Aug 2019
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Ben‏ @nimnaij 15 Aug 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @tylerni7 and

          Signals intelligence (and cne) is a much less risky than others. And we shouldn't rely on a single source of intel anyway. Both of you are making valid points. There is no correct answer here. The competing interests are exactly why equities review process in US gov exists.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 15 Aug 2019
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          Replying to @nimnaij @tylerni7 and

          Sure, and signals intelligence predates iphone exploits. I agree there is no correct answer, the thread started because it was being presented as a solved problem.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation

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