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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Adam 'pi3' Zabrocki‏ @Adam_pi3 1 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @grsecurity @depletionmode and

      No one claims otherwise "(...) it is bypassable by design (albeit sometimes at the expense of more complicated and/or less reliable exploits) (...)". AFAIK, all of the anti-exploitation / security technologies (including mitigations) follow the same path and are bypassable.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. grsecurity‏ @grsecurity 1 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @Adam_pi3 @depletionmode and

      Well except that in this very thread you made several claims that aren't true ;) That's why I don't like these approaches: because they lend themselves to false claims about what "can't" be done, because you'll never include the long list of assumptions that are easily broken.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Adam 'pi3' Zabrocki‏ @Adam_pi3 1 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @grsecurity @depletionmode and

      Happy to grab a beer and debate more offline because I don't think we will ever end this discussion here :)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. grsecurity‏ @grsecurity 1 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @Adam_pi3 @depletionmode and

      You know where to find me ;)

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    5. grsecurity‏ @grsecurity 1 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @grsecurity @Adam_pi3 and

      BTW, just to clear it up, I'm not trying to make this out to be an attack on LKRG specifically, I only mention it because it was brought up and because I could quickly look at some things in it (I like to know what I'm talking about before I comment ;)).

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. grsecurity‏ @grsecurity 1 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @grsecurity @Adam_pi3 and

      It's a general problem with that kind of approach and others that try to detect compromise after it already happened or through piecemeal blacklist checks. Knowing the limitations on asynchronous, expensive checks gives smart attackers a guide to bypassing them pretty generally.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Adam 'pi3' Zabrocki‏ @Adam_pi3 1 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @grsecurity @depletionmode and

      Adam 'pi3' Zabrocki Retweeted David Kaplan #StayHomeSaveLives

      Sure, but at the same time as @depletionmode mentioned it can catch real-world attacks (which are not done by exploiters who can bypass it) https://twitter.com/depletionmode/status/1156824124288884736 … Anyway, I don't think we will ever end this discussion here :)

      Adam 'pi3' Zabrocki added,

      David Kaplan #StayHomeSaveLives @depletionmode
      Replying to @Adam_pi3 @grsecurity and 6 others
      In my view both sides of the argument have merit. However, in the 'real world' products like WDATP et al provide value. Proven fact in the campaigns they've interrupted. As with everything its a cost/benefit play. I think I'm seeing disagreement on the results of that function.
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. grsecurity‏ @grsecurity 1 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @Adam_pi3 @depletionmode and

      Sure, and as I mentioned, there are plenty of ways to do that (maybe you forgot I have ~14 years experience with Windows malware analysis/sandboxing etc ;)), but it's an easy thing to point to in hindsight, and something virtually any security product can claim.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Adam 'pi3' Zabrocki‏ @Adam_pi3 1 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @grsecurity @depletionmode and

      I did not :P Nevertheless, in the real world scenarios I saw cases where in a huge network they still use old 32-bit systems since they are running some shitty 16-bit legacy software (surprisingly it's not a rare case!). That type of products might be the only solution for them.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. David Kaplan #StayHomeSaveLives‏ @depletionmode 1 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @Adam_pi3 @grsecurity and

      Iil don't think that investment in hard-mitigation-based tech and detection 'tricks' are mutually exclusive given the threat landscape today. Sure we all know the limitations of each but practically both have a place right now

      3 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 1 Aug 2019
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      Replying to @depletionmode @Adam_pi3 and

      Nobody argues they're mutually exclusive. Just like homeopathy isn't mutually exclusive with antibiotics. They both have limitations, for example antibiotics can't reattach severed limbs, so it's fair to list them in the same class as homeopathy.... right?

      7:44 AM - 1 Aug 2019
      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. David Kaplan #StayHomeSaveLives‏ @depletionmode 1 Aug 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @Adam_pi3 and

          The 'detection' side of our industry should pack it up because the past 20 years of mitigation progress has solved practical security. Again, working towards technically secure, trustworthy computing is the holy grail. No argument there. The current reality is pwn'd by Powershell

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 1 Aug 2019
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          Replying to @depletionmode @Adam_pi3 and

          Should the homeopaths pack it up because the past 20 years of western medicine haven't cured all disease? Umm, yes. 😆

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        4. 21 more replies

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