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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 31 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @Adam_pi3 and

      I think the burglar sees that it's locked, and opens the next window instead. Can your solution be scaled to lock *all* the windows, or does it get increasingly expensive and complex as you support more and more windows? I think it's the latter.

      2 replies 2 retweets 5 likes
    2. Adam 'pi3' Zabrocki‏ @Adam_pi3 31 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT and

      I understand your point of view. However, using your analogy I don't think it is realistic to rebuilt entire city where bldgs were built using bad principals. Even if you try that (e.g. change CPU and enforce mem tagging), it take years. Do you want to ignore everyone without it?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Adam 'pi3' Zabrocki‏ @Adam_pi3 31 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @Adam_pi3 @taviso and

      Additionally, most of the time exploits/attacks are not custom. So if you can detect / stop them it's a big win. If attacker is sophisticated and has resource to do custom exploitation, whatever you do, might be insufficient

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 31 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @Adam_pi3 @dwizzzleMSFT and

      Hmm, I don't think this is a strong argument, it's basically "so long as very few people use it and nobody specifically targets you, it kinda works in practice!", right?

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    5. Adam 'pi3' Zabrocki‏ @Adam_pi3 31 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT and

      I think you simplified it. It makes exploitation process harder and/or less reliable same as any other anti-exploitation / security technologies (including mitigations). (K)ASLR is easy to bypass, but you still use it. Same with NoExecMem, SMEP, RelRO, more

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Adam 'pi3' Zabrocki‏ @Adam_pi3 31 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @Adam_pi3 @taviso and

      Not to mention AV which are trivial to bypass but people still pay money and see value in it. Same with Firewalls or even any sensor (like Capsule8/Crowdstrike/WDATP). Because they are bypassable that's not the reason to disable e.g. firewalls right?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 31 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @Adam_pi3 @dwizzzleMSFT and

      Well, it sounds like we both agree that LKRG is about as effective as antivirus? 😁 I'm happy to agree to that.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    8. Adam 'pi3' Zabrocki‏ @Adam_pi3 31 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT and

      You simplified it again ;-) LKRG is doing much more e.g. your ROP must be fast so scheduler() won't preempt you, if you disable SMEP it will bugcheck, and more

      3 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 31 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @Adam_pi3 @dwizzzleMSFT and

      I don't think I simplified it, Antivirus also has a long list of things they blacklist, but I guess you think your blacklist is better than theirs. I wonder if they agree ;-)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Adam 'pi3' Zabrocki‏ @Adam_pi3 31 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT and

      I think that simple credentials overwrite is much more stable and reliable than pure-ROP only exploit, which needs to race with scheduler, pCFI and take care of leaving the kernel in a clean state. Higher complexity == less reliable, prone to error

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 31 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @Adam_pi3 @dwizzzleMSFT and

      That's simply a false dichotomy, do you really argue that creds is the only useful thing to overwrite if you have an arbitrary rw? It is simply not a choice between one nice and clean attack vs unreliable complex attack.

      6:09 PM - 31 Jul 2019
      • 1 Like
      • daveaitel
      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        1. Adam 'pi3' Zabrocki‏ @Adam_pi3 31 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @dwizzzleMSFT and

          Of course it's not my point ;-) LKRG has various values and I said before some of the bugs can never give you full R/W (e.g. any 'swapgs' group of bugs, like BadIRET, SysRet, PopSS, etc.). I think we have different views, that's all

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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