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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Filippo Valsorda  🇮🇹‏Verified account @FiloSottile 21 Feb 2019
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      The sentence "every client app can offer a variety of end to end encryption options" means your protocol is unencrypted. In 2019. We spent the last two decades learning that offering a variety of opt-in encryption options on top of unencrypted protocols does not work!pic.twitter.com/jaQGT6xiXw

      3 replies 20 retweets 90 likes
    2. Bert Hubert  🇪🇺‏ @PowerDNS_Bert 22 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @FiloSottile

      Hi Filippo - this is a very good point. What would be the most karmic mode right now for authenticated crypto? ChaCha20+Poly1305? I mean, we have a blank slate..

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 22 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @PowerDNS_Bert @FiloSottile

      Hmm, I was under the impression you were opposed to end to end encryption because it prevents monitoring of end user activity by network administrators? (This is from a recent discussion of DoH)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Bert Hubert  🇪🇺‏ @PowerDNS_Bert 22 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @FiloSottile

      I am not - I am very much in favour of offering people encrypted end to end communications. I am also very much in favour of network operators being able to have visibility in what the equipment on their networks is connecting to. These are different things. 1/2

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Bert Hubert  🇪🇺‏ @PowerDNS_Bert 22 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @PowerDNS_Bert @taviso @FiloSottile

      Not every network is a zone where anything should be possible & unobserveable at all times. If you make it so that your technologies turn every network into a free for all, expect (enterprise) network operators to escalate. 2/2

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 22 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @PowerDNS_Bert @FiloSottile

      I see, how would you implement your philosophy on this topic for a messaging protocol? Encrypted messaging, but cleartext metadata? (fwiw, we disagree on this topic, just trying to understand your viewpoint) 🙂

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Bert Hubert  🇪🇺‏ @PowerDNS_Bert 22 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @FiloSottile

      Does Google do any monitoring through its networks? Or have you found a way to do it all on the endpoints? Because this is the big issue - can you somehow influence and monitor what devices can do from the network or not. 1/2

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Bert Hubert  🇪🇺‏ @PowerDNS_Bert 22 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @PowerDNS_Bert @taviso @FiloSottile

      Regarding the end-two-end instant messaging, in my world, enterprise network operators may decide that they won't offer that to their employees on their network, and that they'd be able to study attempts to circumvent this. This is a choice I'm hoping they'd be able to make. 2/2

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 22 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @PowerDNS_Bert @FiloSottile

      That is quite a difficult answer to parse, if I understand correctly, you're saying you'll support end to end encryption in the same way that POP3 supports end to end encryption - i.e. you won't stop people using PGP over it?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Bert Hubert  🇪🇺‏ @PowerDNS_Bert 22 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @taviso @FiloSottile

      So from a corporate setting, you would for example still see large PGP messages leave the company. You'd be very interested in that. But let us get back to my other question: do you see value in monitoring things from the network? Or should you just ignore that?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 22 Feb 2019
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      Replying to @PowerDNS_Bert @FiloSottile

      I don't really want to debate that, but rest assured I understand your argument and the "going dark" thing. I just wanted to understand how your views on this topic will influence the messaging protocol you're proposing, I'm not saying it's good or bad.

      8:50 AM - 22 Feb 2019
      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Bert Hubert  🇪🇺‏ @PowerDNS_Bert 22 Feb 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @FiloSottile

          I’m very much in favor of secure end to end communications to be available to everyone. But I am not in favor of every network having to offer that, with no regard to if the owner wants it or not. 1/2

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Bert Hubert  🇪🇺‏ @PowerDNS_Bert 22 Feb 2019
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          Replying to @PowerDNS_Bert @taviso @FiloSottile

          And because some people are on a bad county’s network, this will deprive some people. The question now is if you should remove network control from enterprises everywhere to help dissidents in Turkey. What do you think?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. 4 more replies
        1. New conversation
        2. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 22 Feb 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @PowerDNS_Bert @FiloSottile

          e.g. "We will implement default-on end-to-end encrypted messages, but we're opposed to default-on encrypted metadata, such as recipients, attachment names, links, etc", I'm not making a judgement call - but I do think it should be clearly documented - this is important to people.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Bert Hubert  🇪🇺‏ @PowerDNS_Bert 22 Feb 2019
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          Replying to @taviso @FiloSottile

          Good points. I only involved myself into the encryption discussion today - this is from another department of the company. DoH is my game. Will figure it out.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation

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