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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

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    1. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @taviso @lorenzofb and

      I think all reasonable people, even in the AV industry, will agree with "doesn't make it safe to click on anything". The "not even safer" is more contentious, and that is where the debate is.

      3 replies 0 retweets 13 likes
    2. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 14 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @taviso @lorenzofb

      Yes, they would. They would even, if not always publicly, agree that AV isn't your biggest priority. Here's a funny thing: lots of AV vendor blogs are filled with advice for (home and corporate) users. A lot of this advice actually reduces the need for AV.

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
    3. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 14 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @martijn_grooten @taviso @lorenzofb

      It's funny: AV is doing a pretty good job reducing the threat on all those legacy networks where half the desktops still run XP. But rather than boasting about it, AV vendors keep telling people to patch their systems, upgrade OS's. That's also why I believe AV aren't bad people.

      1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
    4. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @martijn_grooten @lorenzofb

      Don't push it too far Martijn, a homeopath that tells you to exercise and eat right is still a homeopath 😛 Installing antivirus on XP does not make it a secure system, if the antivirus ever makes a difference then you're in serious trouble.

      1 reply 0 retweets 11 likes
    5. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 14 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @taviso @lorenzofb

      I don't disagree with that statement. In theory, a company's CFO should never run in a situation where AV¹ makes a serious difference. In practice, a whole lot of of them do and I think AV still makes a decent difference. ¹endpoint protection and ignoring APT-style attacks.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Arrigo Triulzi‏ @cynicalsecurity 14 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @martijn_grooten @taviso @lorenzofb

      Allow me: what _exactly_ does AV protect? And, follow on, at what collateral risk?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 14 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @cynicalsecurity @taviso @lorenzofb

      It protects the user from things like installing a "Flash Player update" because a website tells them to, when it's actually malware. At a risk that is quite small for this threat model.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    8. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @taviso @martijn_grooten and

      How about, "With some very significant security tradeoffs, there is a non-zero chance that if your vendor has seen this exact file before, even though there is no reason that they would have had to, we could stop it. You are still in very significant danger".

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 14 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @taviso @cynicalsecurity @lorenzofb

      The 1990s just called and want your "exact file" argument back... AV hasn't relied on exact matches for decades. Most AV engines include a significant machine learning component.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Nov 2018
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      Replying to @martijn_grooten @cynicalsecurity @lorenzofb

      No, the antivirus industry is desperate to distance themselves from blacklisting. The reality is that I've reverse engineered more antivirus engines than you have, and think "blacklisting" is a very appropriate term. So 2018 called, and wants you to accept reality 😛

      11:48 AM - 14 Nov 2018
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      2 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
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        2. Martijn Grooten‏ @martijn_grooten 14 Nov 2018
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          Replying to @taviso @cynicalsecurity @lorenzofb

          Oh, I'm sure there's _also_ a lot of blacklisting taking place. Because a lot of files are actually reused a lot and adding the hash to some blacklist is the most fail-safe way to add detection for that file.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 14 Nov 2018
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          Replying to @martijn_grooten @cynicalsecurity @lorenzofb

          Here is the problem: A user is somehow clicking through warnings and running attachments, this is your wheelhouse. You say "you need antivirus!". Is the user now secure? The answer is no, antivirus doesn't make it safe to run attachments. So what exactly is it you solved?

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
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