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taviso's profile
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Tavis Ormandy
Verified account
@taviso

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Tavis OrmandyVerified account

@taviso

Vulnerability researcher at Google. This is a personal stream, opinions expressed are mine.

California
taviso.decsystem.org
Joined April 2008

Tweets

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    1. Matthew Green‏ @matthew_d_green 2 Oct 2018
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      Replying to @halvarflake

      No. You’re just suffering from software-sucks syndrome.

      1 reply 0 retweets 11 likes
    2. Matthew Green‏ @matthew_d_green 2 Oct 2018
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      Replying to @matthew_d_green @halvarflake

      What happens (speaking vaguely as an academic, though in the wrong field) is that someone comes to us and says “here’s this super powerful bug that’s really easy to exploit” and the first thing we think is “surely someone will squash the really obvious exploit path, what then?”

      1 reply 0 retweets 8 likes
    3. Matthew Green‏ @matthew_d_green 2 Oct 2018
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      Replying to @matthew_d_green @halvarflake

      And then before we know it, we’ve extrapolated nine cycles of patch/exploit forward to the point where the attacker’s only way to win is to get Turing completeness, yay!

      2 replies 1 retweet 5 likes
    4. Matthew Green‏ @matthew_d_green 2 Oct 2018
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      Replying to @matthew_d_green @halvarflake

      Whereas what happens in the real world is that nobody ever fixes the really obvious exploitation path and everyone laughs at the eggheads with their silly ideas.

      1 reply 5 retweets 16 likes
    5. Matthew Green‏ @matthew_d_green 2 Oct 2018
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      Replying to @matthew_d_green @halvarflake

      As a related example, in cryptography we have nine billion examples of sophisticated cryptographic side-channel attacks, that succeed by extracting key bits — but in the real world you can just use Spectre/Foreshadow to dump RAM. The real world sucks.

      2 replies 7 retweets 25 likes
    6. Matthew Green‏ @matthew_d_green 2 Oct 2018
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      Replying to @matthew_d_green @halvarflake

      AND FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE THIS IS ALL *YOUR* FAULT. 😊

      1 reply 1 retweet 7 likes
    7. halvarflake‏ @halvarflake 2 Oct 2018
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      Replying to @matthew_d_green

      So the issue in (academic) vulnerability work is slightly different. A lot originates in the re-discovery of ROP and the need to distinguish it from already published exploits; the fact that you can emulate the equivalent of a conditional branch was then conjured up.

      2 replies 0 retweets 9 likes
    8. halvarflake‏ @halvarflake 2 Oct 2018
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      Replying to @halvarflake @matthew_d_green

      This made the phrase "Turing complete" seep into the discussion about exploits, when it really is a shorthand for "we are confident we can read almost every piece of memory and compute with it and write to it". This is *very* different from "it is an exploit when we achieve...

      1 reply 1 retweet 5 likes
    9. halvarflake‏ @halvarflake 2 Oct 2018
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      Replying to @halvarflake @matthew_d_green

      ... Turing completeness". Javascript in a browser looks pretty Turing-complete to me (if I had an infinite RAM machine of course, but that is a different can of worms).

      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    10. Matthew Green‏ @matthew_d_green 2 Oct 2018
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      Replying to @halvarflake

      Well like I said, the practical fact is that most exploits only require a system call. But you could imagine a system where somehow defenders had managed to make that not a viable strategy. And there TC starts to be more interesting.

      2 replies 1 retweet 1 like
      Tavis Ormandy‏Verified account @taviso 2 Oct 2018
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      Replying to @matthew_d_green @halvarflake

      I dunno, does it? The attack you're imagining is stealing compute time? It feels like the days where that could have been interesting are long gone, cheap compute & interpreters everywhere is the norm now 🤷‍♂️

      1:30 PM - 2 Oct 2018
      • 6 Likes
      • Joachim Schipper Shakeel Mahate Alexei Bulazel Symbolic Executioner adrian Don A. Bailey
      1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Matthew Green‏ @matthew_d_green 2 Oct 2018
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          Replying to @taviso @halvarflake

          I see. So the objection is that TC is not by itself useful, but rather than even TC computation does not mean your program can exceed its access limitations in a meaningful way. That makes sense.

          2 replies 1 retweet 5 likes
        3. Matthew Green‏ @matthew_d_green 2 Oct 2018
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          Replying to @matthew_d_green @taviso @halvarflake

          Is that really how it was defined though?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. 5 more replies

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