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ssylvan's profile
Sebastian Sylvan
Sebastian Sylvan
Sebastian Sylvan
@ssylvan

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Sebastian Sylvan

@ssylvan

Graphics engineer. From Sweden, lives in Seattle. Works at Google on VR stuff. Weak opinions, strongly held.

Seattle
sebastiansylvan.com
Joined November 2009

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    Sebastian Sylvan‏ @ssylvan 31 Dec 2018

    Sebastian Sylvan Retweeted Meeting C++

    You know that "10x programmer" thing that people keep referencing? One of the secrets to that is being good with a debugger. It's mind boggling that some people don't realize what a huge force multiplier it is. If this view is common among the C++ committee, we're all screwed.https://twitter.com/meetingcpp/status/1078732469350944770 …

    Sebastian Sylvan added,

    Meeting C++ @meetingcpp
    Yes, you can't really rely on the debugger as your major dev tool for Modern C++. But Modern C++ does not stem from that school of thought, that the debugger should be a major dev tool... #LastRT
    Show this thread
    1:21 PM - 31 Dec 2018
    • 231 Retweets
    • 950 Likes
    • Loukas Daljeet Virdi Balaji S. Srinivasan Gustavo “Mucho Love” Tavares Diego Casella søren ༼∩☉ل͜☉༽⊃━☆゚. * ・ 。゚ Robbie Blake-Coleman Adam Sawicki
    48 replies 231 retweets 950 likes
      1. Sebastian Sylvan‏ @ssylvan 31 Dec 2018

        Programmers I've worked with that I most looked up to have one thing in common: They'd pull up VS or WinDBG and knew ALL the tricks, and could track down a bug in 5 minutes that the printf crowd would've spent a week on. Aren't a lot of things that give you that kind of a boost.

        25 replies 28 retweets 229 likes
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      1. New conversation
      2. 𝚠𝚒𝚕 𝚜𝚑𝚒𝚙𝚕𝚎𝚢‏Verified account @wilshipley Dec 31
        Replying to @ssylvan @Jonathan_Blow

        Also, we encourage doctors not to use stethoscopes.

        1 reply 2 retweets 34 likes
      3. Sebastian Sylvan‏ @ssylvan Dec 31
        Replying to @wilshipley @Jonathan_Blow

        Yes! Stethoscopes are a crutch! Just sit down and think about what the body is doing and work out what's wrong from there!

        1 reply 0 retweets 26 likes
      4. 1 more reply
      1. New conversation
      2. Hamish Todd‏ @hamish_todd Dec 31
        Replying to @ssylvan

        Any recommendations for articles/direct tips for getting good?

        2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      3. Andy Luhrs‏ @aluhrs13 Jan 1
        Replying to @hamish_todd @ssylvan

        Use your debugger for easy bugs as much as you would hard ones. Learning the ins and outs when it's an easy bug pays off for the harder bugs.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. Hamish Todd‏ @hamish_todd Jan 1
        Replying to @aluhrs13 @ssylvan

        Urgh... that sounds good but like... is the suggestion that printf is always bad?

        2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. Sebastian Sylvan‏ @ssylvan Jan 1
        Replying to @hamish_todd @aluhrs13

        It's just limited. Printf let's you see only what you thought to print out.. So you need to constantly go back and forth adding more printfs then trying to repro the issue etc. With a debugger you just have to catch the problem once (usually) and the whole program is your oyster.

        2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      6. Sebastian Sylvan‏ @ssylvan Jan 1
        Replying to @ssylvan @hamish_todd @aluhrs13

        As for suggestions, I'd recommend using Visual Studio first and use their built in debugger. Read the docs about all its features. But if you really want to go nuts, try WinDBG. It even let's you go backwards in time, or write SQL-like queries on a trace or the current state!

        0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      7. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Michael Labbé‏ @frogtoss 31 Dec 2018
        Replying to @ssylvan

        I have a hard time believing this view is representative of a majority of people who are fully on board with modern c++. It's simply ignorant of a perfectly valid and effective way to write software.

        2 replies 0 retweets 17 likes
      3. Sebastian Sylvan‏ @ssylvan 31 Dec 2018
        Replying to @frogtoss

        One can hope.

        0 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
      4. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Ryan‏ @BeFuckingMetal 31 Dec 2018
        Replying to @ssylvan @ID_AA_Carmack

        The trick to being 10x is to think imperatively? A practice that's phasing out of the industry?

        2 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
      3. Sebastian Sylvan‏ @ssylvan Dec 31
        Replying to @BeFuckingMetal @ID_AA_Carmack

        10x programmers use what they can get to make them more productive. Part of that is to look at what your program is *actually* doing, when it's clear that it's not doing what you think it should be doing. This can be the difference between 30s and 30mins (or 30h).

        1 reply 1 retweet 18 likes
      4. Ryan‏ @BeFuckingMetal Jan 1
        Replying to @ssylvan @ID_AA_Carmack

        I dont see how that contradicts what I said

        0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      5. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2.  🇺🇸Mike Nicolella‏ @MikeNicolella 31 Dec 2018
        Replying to @ssylvan

        Is there any more context to this tweet - was this something someone mentioned in a talk?

        2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      3. Sebastian Sylvan‏ @ssylvan 31 Dec 2018
        Replying to @MikeNicolella

        I think it was in response to the "Modern C++ is hard to debug" stuff from @aras_p (and others). The previous RT before that tweet was @aras_p's blog post.

        1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
      4. alexsink‏ @alexsink Jan 1
        Replying to @ssylvan @MikeNicolella @aras_p

        The conclusion of the post seems attractive. Maybe 2 parallel languages - c and templates do not deliver the benefits of efficiency that keep folks tied to c++ . The "snake" in templates is a data pointhttps://github.com/mattbierner/STT-C-Compile-Time-Snake …

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      5.  🇺🇸Mike Nicolella‏ @MikeNicolella Jan 1
        Replying to @alexsink @ssylvan @aras_p

        Everyone has their 'wishlist' of what they think is good+bad. C with function overloading and member+virtual functions plus light templates and reflection would be a good start for me.

        1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      6. alexsink‏ @alexsink Jan 1
        Replying to @MikeNicolella @ssylvan @aras_p

        Agreed, seems like a good start. Void* function pointers feel weird, and lack compiler help. To say nothing of modern problems of when/how to parellelize across cores or just use simd. Data, threading and mental overhead seem to be at the ... Core... of the issue. Oh, puns :)

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      7. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. siorulo neformatiblo‏ @siorulo Jan 1
        Replying to @ssylvan

        Or you could switch to Rust and stop having so many bugs. 😂 Debuggers are only useful for debugging shitty code.

        2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Sebastian Sylvan‏ @ssylvan Jan 1
        Replying to @siorulo

        Absolutely not. I love Rust, but I still use debuggers constantly while developing new code and tracking down issues in old code. Nothing is going to beat seeing what your program is actually doing.

        1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
      4. siorulo neformatiblo‏ @siorulo Jan 1
        Replying to @ssylvan

        Why can't you tell what is wrong without having to inspect stuff in a Debugger? Not enough tests? Logging? Invariants? Debuggers are enabler... of bad code. Last time I was using it with Rust was when I've have hit an issue in a ffi dependency.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. siorulo neformatiblo‏ @siorulo Jan 1
        Replying to @siorulo @ssylvan

        Production issues typically can't even be diagnosed with debuggers. And debugging is throw away time unlike a test, logging assertions or better structured code. Sure everyone should know how to use them, but the further goal is to not need one in the first place. At least IMO.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      6. siorulo neformatiblo‏ @siorulo Jan 1
        Replying to @siorulo @ssylvan

        And not only imo:https://lemire.me/blog/2016/06/21/i-do-not-use-a-debugger/ …

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      7. End of conversation

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