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southpolesteve's profile
Steve Faulkner
Steve Faulkner
Steve Faulkner
@southpolesteve

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Steve Faulkner

@southpolesteve

Engineering @microsoft @AzureCosmosDB. Prev: @linkedin, made @bustle #serverless, co-founded @murfiemusic, physics research at the South Pole

Philadelphia, PA
southpolesteve.com
Joined April 2009

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    1. Michael Hart‏ @hichaelmart Feb 25
      Replying to @hichaelmart @southpolesteve

      The ultimate step beyond FaaS will be invocations as a service. Sure, you can provide a function API, just like the Go Lambda runtime does, but really you're uploading an RPC server. Allow ppl to package that in a container and boot it fast, and voila.

      3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Michael Hart‏ @hichaelmart Feb 25
      Replying to @hichaelmart @southpolesteve

      This is, btw, what OpenWhisk already lets you do... it's just... IBM Bluemix hosted... and kinda with an ugly API right now. Add an AWS rocket boost to it, and with the right API :chefskiss:

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Steve Faulkner‏ @southpolesteve Feb 25
      Replying to @hichaelmart

      They might. AWS isn't allergic to money. I don't think it will invalidate anything I said. By building Lambda infra above container level AWS is giving themselves more land to build a bigger moat around their castle. I don't see them giving that up at the runtime.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Steve Faulkner‏ @southpolesteve Feb 25
      Replying to @southpolesteve @hichaelmart

      Containers can be helpful. Reproducibility or dev UX is a great example. But as a packaging or runtime format? Seems like something AWS doesn't want to do. They would be much happier to invert the dev model entirely and have us all use Cloud9, dev directly on Lambda

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    5. Michael Hart‏ @hichaelmart Feb 25
      Replying to @southpolesteve

      So what, that's just an API they expose. Great dev experience. OpenWhisk let's you do the same thing, editing functions in browser. But remember for anything beyond that, with Lambda, you upload a particularly structured zipfile 😉

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Steve Faulkner‏ @southpolesteve Feb 25
      Replying to @hichaelmart

      "a particularly structured zipfile" 😂 I do realize they can be much more, but you just described so many containers.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Michael Hart‏ @hichaelmart Feb 25
      Replying to @southpolesteve

      Um, that was my point

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Steve Faulkner‏ @southpolesteve Feb 25
      Replying to @hichaelmart

      twitter is hard. Maybe were not really disagreeing? I'm also trying to cram too many points into too few chars? 1. AWS has business reasons to avoid containers as a packaging format 2. containers are fine things, but increasingly irrelevant to serverless devs

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Michael Hart‏ @hichaelmart Feb 25
      Replying to @southpolesteve

      Explain the business reason to me? 🤔 It'd be the same business model as Lambda is right now

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Steve Faulkner‏ @southpolesteve Feb 25
      Replying to @hichaelmart

      "run my code" gives more room for AWS to build magic and proprietary value than "run my container". The higher level abstraction may be worse dev UX in the short term than a container but I bet they that gap will close.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      Steve Faulkner‏ @southpolesteve Feb 25
      Replying to @southpolesteve @hichaelmart

      Sure today there isn't much difference between "run my code" and "run my container", but by embracing code, AWS leaves open many more futures. Like maybe a nodejs specific lambda platform that doesn't run containers at all an uses VM sandboxing.

      4:13 PM - 25 Feb 2018
      • 1 Like
      • JW
      3 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. Steve Faulkner‏ @southpolesteve Feb 25
          Replying to @southpolesteve @hichaelmart

          I've got one other practical reason. But I think it is not for public twitter.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. chrismunns‏ @chrismunns Feb 25
          Replying to @southpolesteve @hichaelmart

          A *lot* of customers say they love the built in language model and just want better library capabilities. That’s not the same as containers and many do no want some container format model they need to deal with

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Michael Hart‏ @hichaelmart Feb 25
          Replying to @chrismunns @southpolesteve

          But like I’ve been saying, that’s just a tooling issue. They’d only need to “deal” with it in the same way they do zipfiles. You think most Java Lambda devs really know the structure of them?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. chrismunns‏ @chrismunns Feb 25
          Replying to @hichaelmart @southpolesteve

          So what does a “container” format offer up? What does it solve?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Michael Hart‏ @hichaelmart Feb 25
          Replying to @chrismunns @southpolesteve

          Reproducibility. You can look out there at all the blog posts with ppl explaining how to compile things for Lambda – I'm sure you've seen them. I mean – AWS Sam Local uses docker-lambda just to try to reproduce the env reliably!

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. chrismunns‏ @chrismunns Feb 25
          Replying to @hichaelmart @southpolesteve

          Yup and these are solvable problems without containers. I’m not sure they are the key here as they don’t really provide that much and introduce bloat and overhead themselves that need tooling

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. Michael Hart‏ @hichaelmart Feb 25
          Replying to @chrismunns @southpolesteve

          Well the key needs to be something. As more and more ppl use Lambda for a wider variety of things, like ML, they're running into more and more issues with its restrictions and specificity.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. Michael Hart‏ @hichaelmart Feb 25
          Replying to @hichaelmart @chrismunns @southpolesteve

          You're also locking ppl out who want to use other languages. Sure you could develop them yourselves. Have 50 different Lambda runtimes. OR one container runtime, and some libraries so they can just compile functions if they want – like Go.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        10. 1 more reply
        1. New conversation
        2. Michael Hart‏ @hichaelmart Feb 25
          Replying to @southpolesteve

          That's demonstrably false – the Go Runtime is a perfect example. It's *more* generic than the other runtimes – it just runs a binary you upload. That literally could be a docker binary – they'd just need to optimize some things (like they do with mounting /var/task etc)

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Michael Hart‏ @hichaelmart Feb 25
          Replying to @hichaelmart @southpolesteve

          The business lock-in for Lambda isn't the packaging or code structure – it's the fact that it integrates so well with all the AWS services, you just can't help but want to use it.

          1 reply 1 retweet 5 likes
        4. Michael Hart‏ @hichaelmart Feb 25
          Replying to @hichaelmart @southpolesteve

          Well, that and the fact that it deploys so quickly and scales like the bejesus. And yeah, there'd be some challenges to get docker containers to cold boot as fast – would need to pre-mount (like it does currently with /var/task) for example. Maybe place some restrictions?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Steve Faulkner‏ @southpolesteve Feb 25
          Replying to @hichaelmart

          I bet internally there are all kinds of strange reasons Lambda is built the way it is. I can only speculate. But I don't think the arch of the go runtime makes what I said obviously false.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Steve Faulkner‏ @southpolesteve Feb 25
          Replying to @southpolesteve @hichaelmart

          I'd also guess a similar internal debate to what we are having happened. "long term business goals" vs "dev ux" vs "we needed Go support yesterday!"

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Roman‏ @naumenko_roman Aug 14
          Replying to @southpolesteve @hichaelmart

          There is a huge difference, actually: event handlers and step functions

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Michael Hart‏ @hichaelmart Aug 14
          Replying to @naumenko_roman @southpolesteve

          Difference between what? Event handlers and step functions are just how the process is invoked from the outside – nothing to do with the model internally

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Roman‏ @naumenko_roman Aug 14
          Replying to @hichaelmart @southpolesteve

          Difference between running the code and running containers.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Michael Hart‏ @hichaelmart Aug 14
          Replying to @naumenko_roman @southpolesteve

          So then I'm not sure what you mean – you could keep event handlers and step functions even if you're using a serverless containers model

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Roman‏ @naumenko_roman Aug 14
          Replying to @hichaelmart @southpolesteve

          There is nothing to keep with lambda, but with containers it’s a typical heavy lifting effort to developer http handlers.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Michael Hart‏ @hichaelmart Aug 14
          Replying to @naumenko_roman @southpolesteve

          Go Lambda does the same thing – just uses gob rpc instead of http 😉 A container could do the same thing if that was really a bottleneck, though I imagine it's a micro-optimization (a Node.js http server starts in ~10ms)

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. End of conversation

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