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slightlylate's profile
Alex Russell
Alex Russell
Alex Russell
@slightlylate

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Alex Russell

@slightlylate

Chrome Project 🐡 & Web Standards TL; Blink API OWNER Named PWAs w/ @phae; probably making her ☕ DMs open. Tweets my own; press@google.com for official comms.

San Francisco, The Internet
infrequently.org
Joined December 2010

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    1. Rich Harris‏Verified account @Rich_Harris 23 Nov 2019
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      Rich Harris Retweeted Sarah Mei

      So, web components • break a11y • break progressive enhancement (no SSR, broken without JS) • don't work with SVG • share a global namespace instead of being modular • ... Imagine how much tedious moralising we'd see if JS frameworks shipped with similar limitationshttps://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/1198069119897047041 …

      Rich Harris added,

      Sarah MeiVerified account @sarahmei
      PSA: There is currently no way for web components to be accessible if you use the isolation feature (called “shadow dom”). Isolate the label from the input field, for example, & you break all the assistive technology - which requires they be tied together with ids.
      Show this thread
      43 replies 265 retweets 1,106 likes
    2. Francisco Tolmasky‏ @tolmasky 23 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @Rich_Harris @devongovett

      I don’t understand why the shadow dom didn’t start as a declarative feature (as in <shadow-root> in HTML vs. JS-first). That alone would have solved a lot of these problems, and could have possibly had a very predictable “just works” fallback behavior in older browsers.

      3 replies 2 retweets 15 likes
    3. Rich Harris‏Verified account @Rich_Harris 23 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @tolmasky @devongovett

      I've wondered about this, as it's often raised as a potential solution to the SSR issue. I'm not sure it quite works though — you'd presumably have to define the markup in the JS class *as well*, and figure out the semantics around hydration (esp. with mismatches)

      2 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
    4. Alex Russell‏ @slightlylate 23 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @Rich_Harris @tolmasky @devongovett

      Because it's much, *much* harder. We explored declarative extensively; became obvious that other vendors could never agree to it w/o imperative first...so we did what we could. I still hope we'll get back to that; won't happen w/ folks assuming bad faith, tho.

      1 reply 0 retweets 15 likes
    5. Francisco Tolmasky‏ @tolmasky 23 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @slightlylate @Rich_Harris @devongovett

      Sure but now we’re in a world where we simultaneously tell people they use JS too much but also that *the way* to do things going forward is JS first. It’s confusing saying dump your bloated JS frameworks for... this other JS thing. Not saying it’s wrong, just an uphill battle.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Alex Russell‏ @slightlylate 23 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @tolmasky @Rich_Harris @devongovett

      The second half of that is clearly misbegotten. We need to reduce JS dependence overall, and WC can help. No silver bullets, tho. Only hard graft.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    7. Francisco Tolmasky‏ @tolmasky 23 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @slightlylate @Rich_Harris @devongovett

      I don’t think it’s misbegotten, I think you’re focusing on correctness and I’m trying to express intuitiveness. The idea that a JS API (that has no non-JS fallback) will help remove our dependence from JS is understandably counter-intuitive.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    8. Francisco Tolmasky‏ @tolmasky 23 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @tolmasky @slightlylate and

      I further think that it is not unreasonable to predict that having such a fundamental part of basic web UI rely on JS (in a way nothing before has had to), *might* inadvertently signal a green light to use *more* JS.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Alex Russell‏ @slightlylate 23 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @tolmasky @Rich_Harris @devongovett

      Agree re: counter-intuitive; I see this as a different starting points. One says "the platform is trash, start with JS and compile down". The other says "the platform isn't great, but we can patch in only what we need". WC are built from the second and work best there.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    10. Alex Russell‏ @slightlylate 23 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @slightlylate @tolmasky and

      That is, if you start with an HTML/markup-first mindset, WC for PE work well. If you start with an absolutist "I'm trying to replace the DOM, whatcha got for me?" perspective, it's *clearly* unsatisfying.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
      Alex Russell‏ @slightlylate 23 Nov 2019
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      Replying to @slightlylate @tolmasky and

      Anyhow, hear you on the desire for a declarative form. I hope other vendors do too. Now that Mozilla and MSFT are finally caught up, optimistic we can land new features faster going forward.

      10:30 PM - 23 Nov 2019
      • 4 Likes
      • Gavin Doughtie Fabian Franz Seebiscuit Francisco Tolmasky
      0 replies 0 retweets 4 likes

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