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slightlylate's profile
Alex Russell
Alex Russell
Alex Russell
@slightlylate

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Alex Russell

@slightlylate

Chrome Project 🐡 & Web Standards TL; Blink API OWNER Named PWAs w/ @phae; probably making her ☕ DMs open. Tweets my own; press@google.com for official comms.

San Francisco, The Internet
infrequently.org
Joined December 2010

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    1. every_jorendorff‏ @jorendorff 26 Jul 2019
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      every_jorendorff Retweeted Sam Tobin-Hochstadt

      Sam puts his finger on what weak references do that is unique. I don’t fully understand the point...https://twitter.com/samth/status/1151982821914873861 …

      every_jorendorff added,

      Sam Tobin-Hochstadt @samth
      Replying to @jorendorff
      What weakrefs give you is the ability to create an API that's the same as the allocator: the result can be freely duplicated and is available as long as someone might reference it. Unfortunately there isn't really another way to provide that, and it's a capability people need.
      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
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    2. every_jorendorff‏ @jorendorff 26 Jul 2019
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      Maybe roughly: Weak caches ensure that you don't get multiple copies of a value in memory at once. 1. This bounds worst-case memory use. 2. Interning makes `===` good. 3. If the value is mutable, you may really need there to be only one (the ORM use case).

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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    3. every_jorendorff‏ @jorendorff 26 Jul 2019
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      Pretty sweet write-up by @kriszyp of the ORM use case for weak caches:https://dev.doctorevidence.com/an-introduction-to-weak-value-maps-40e108b44e1c …

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
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    4. every_jorendorff‏ @jorendorff 26 Jul 2019
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      every_jorendorff Retweeted getify

      A couple of posts mentioned devtools-y use cases. (For this, without knowing more, I’d try a one-way WeakMap, but there’s no denying it depends. WeakMap can’t do a true two-way weak link.)https://twitter.com/getify/status/1152080862478913537 …

      every_jorendorff added,

      getify @getify
      Replying to @BrendanEich @daniel_bilar @jorendorff
      I remember working on FF devtools (DOM inspector) back in 2011 and wanting weakrefs to be able to create a 2 way weak link between a DOM element and the representative element of it in the inspector.
      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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    5. every_jorendorff‏ @jorendorff 26 Jul 2019
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      every_jorendorff Retweeted Ashley Gullen

      Last use case. Because finalizers are a way of observing GC, they can sort of be used to implement distributed GC. I don’t think this is a good idea, but let it not be said you can’t do stuff with it...https://twitter.com/AshleyGullen/status/1151903665843838981 …

      every_jorendorff added,

      Ashley Gullen @AshleyGullen
      Replying to @jorendorff
      Ever wanted to use the DOM in a Web Worker? It's possible... but only with WeakRefs: https://github.com/AshleyScirra/via.js …
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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    6. every_jorendorff‏ @jorendorff 26 Jul 2019
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      You can create an API-level illusion that two shared-nothing heaps are magically joined and shared-everything. It’s cool, but the illusion hides a boundary where sync-looking code becomes async, and errors disappear.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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    7. every_jorendorff‏ @jorendorff 26 Jul 2019
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      every_jorendorff Retweeted David Bruant

      The more usual case for distributed GC is the same illusion, but across networks. Seems even more problematic to me. Not everyone agrees!https://twitter.com/DavidBruant/status/1152630018826297344 …

      every_jorendorff added,

      David Bruant @DavidBruant
      There exists a vision of networked computing that is both useful and secure (unlike what we have today) I think the best (abstract) description i can think of is described by this very recent video from @agoric https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLzDw4TTug5O1oHRbp2HkcvKABAY9FKsmG&v=P4apA2FKSJU …
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    8. every_jorendorff‏ @jorendorff 26 Jul 2019
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      Anyway, using WeakRef and/or finalizers to extend GC to other heaps has the same issues as using it to extend GC to the Wasm heap. You won't be happy with that for long. Cycles across the boundary will leak.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
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    9. every_jorendorff‏ @jorendorff 26 Jul 2019
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      every_jorendorff Retweeted Dave Herman

      One last tweet. Dave Herman is pragmatic and proud. (This one comes in a little hot, but you have to remember the context was a flat-out rant)https://twitter.com/littlecalculist/status/1151976411743150080 …

      every_jorendorff added,

      Dave Herman @littlecalculist
      Replying to @jorendorff
      No, I don't agree with that. Waiting several years for a hypothetical perfect thing doesn't have a good historical track record. Low level primitives can carry risks of misuse, but absent a real alternative presented in a real time frame, I'm on Team WeakRefs.
      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
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    10. every_jorendorff‏ @jorendorff 26 Jul 2019
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      No one responded to the point that each nondeterministic feature we “standardize” invites Web content to standardize the unspecified bits for us, putting the burden of reverse-engineering that contract on minority browsers.

      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
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      Alex Russell‏ @slightlylate 26 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @jorendorff @kriszyp

      The totemic value of this argument is interesting to me as a cultural boundary, no matter how much lower this burden is in practice now that we're in a fully OSS-engine world.

      12:47 PM - 26 Jul 2019
      3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. every_jorendorff‏ @jorendorff 29 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @slightlylate @kriszyp

          I can't tell what you're trying to say here. Annex B.3.3 was written in a practically OSS-engine world. What has to be reverse-engineered in such a case is not the workings of any one implementation but the implicit standard.

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        1. Andrew McCreight‏ @amccreight 26 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @slightlylate @jorendorff

          The notion of reachability depends on so many things, like collector timing, JIT optimizations, closure conversion rules. Is anybody who wants to make cross-compatible weak refs going to have to understand eg the circumstances under which Oilpan uses conservative stack scanning?

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        1. Steve Fink‏ @hotsphink 26 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @slightlylate @jorendorff @kriszyp

          Given the depth of behavior that weak refs make observable, that is equivalent to saying there is no problem because we can all switch (piecemeal, perhaps) to the dominant engine. Also, it says that it's OK in practice for Chrome 96 to be restricted to the behavior of Chrome 69.

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