Really think the @slatestarcodex, rationalists, EA, free speechers, less wrong need to ask themselves: are you actually involved in the struggle for a better world? Or are you debating fictional utopias where existing power and politics don't exist?
-
Show this thread
-
Replying to @AndrewMakeTweet
1) I like your metaphor, because it seems clear to me that we should act to promote a world where more material worlds are met and there's less discrimination, even though it's hard and we may never succeed completely. I think the same is true here.
1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes -
Replying to @slatestarcodex @AndrewMakeTweet
2) I understand you're probably gesturing at a broader point, which is that good discourse isn't useful at all until we get that world. I disagree, and I've written a little about why at http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/23/in-favor-of-niceness-community-and-civilization/ … andhttp://slatestarcodex.com/2017/03/24/guided-by-the-beauty-of-our-weapons/ …
2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes -
Replying to @slatestarcodex @AndrewMakeTweet
3) The short version is that I think this works the same as every other virtue. Some people say there's no point in being kind, given that we live in an unkind world where rulebreakers can always beat people who play fair.
1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes -
Replying to @slatestarcodex @AndrewMakeTweet
4) But there's also the opportunity for kind people to build communities with other kind people that don't have the same dog-eat-dog norms as eg high finance. I've lived in some of those communities and I'm grateful those people didn't wait for Utopia before trying to help.
1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes -
Replying to @slatestarcodex @AndrewMakeTweet
5) In the same way, I think that right now, there are lots of communities with really good discourse norms where people change their minds and try to seek the truth together. I think science is one such community. I hope I the comment section of my blog can be another.
1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes -
Replying to @slatestarcodex @AndrewMakeTweet
6) The question isn't "can we produce global utopia tomorrow?", it's whether the good communities get to locally expand and win over their neighbors, or whether they decay into the same cesspool as eg the YouTube comments section. My writings are a vote for the former.
1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes -
Replying to @slatestarcodex @AndrewMakeTweet
7) I understand it is really tempting just to try to get "our" side to spread better propaganda. But are you a better propagandist than Breitbart? If not, you lose. If so, you win by coincidence, and your side loses later when the coincidence reverses.
1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes -
Replying to @slatestarcodex @AndrewMakeTweet
8) Teaching people to reason is the only way to do better than "let's hope the best propagandist is also a good guy". & as Gandhi said, "if you think the world is all bad, remember it contains people like you". If you can reason beyond absorbing propaganda, why not teach others?
1 reply 1 retweet 6 likes -
Replying to @slatestarcodex
I am tempted by this point but there is a good counterargument: people in the short-term count. You and I might be safe in the meantime, but real avertable suffering and death are happening. It's a difficult balance but I think 'good discourse absolutism' isn't always the answer.
1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
I've tried to avoid absolutism. Like nukes, propaganda is important to have if your enemy also has it, but having it is no excuse not also to be working toward a world where it's unnecessary. I talk about this more in the second link I posted.
-
-
Replying to @slatestarcodex
What worries me is that while I think you're right macro and for the subcommunity, there might be a bug in this way of thinking: what if leads you to personally avoid effective persuasion or propaganda confrontation that would make a big difference?
1 reply 0 retweets 1 like -
Replying to @AndrewMakeTweet @slatestarcodex
This is a question of duty. E.g. if you're this good at analytic thinking, perhaps it's inappropriate for you to be spending it on -omics when people are dying of missing proven things, and you could apply your analytic mind to the political economic aspects of that.
1 reply 0 retweets 1 like - 2 more replies
New conversation -
Loading seems to be taking a while.
Twitter may be over capacity or experiencing a momentary hiccup. Try again or visit Twitter Status for more information.