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sbelak's profile
Simon Belak
Simon Belak
Simon Belak
@sbelak

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Simon Belak

@sbelak

Philosopher-hacker. Sometimes theatre director. Making myself obsolete at @Metabase

Joined February 2009

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    1. Jorge Timón‏ @timoncc Apr 7
      Replying to @fnietom @ercwl and

      Note many smart contracts aren't verified by a aingle chain. Smart contract != single script in single chain (perhaps in the ether). For example, an atomic swap is several scripts in seceral transactions in 2 chains.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Fernando Nieto‏ @fnietom Apr 7
      Replying to @timoncc @ercwl and

      Right, and an atomic swap is a great tool when you are swapping two digital assets (eg. LTC/BTC) because it allows you to do it without trust. I think when one of the assets requires trust, the trust requirements of the contract change as well.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    3. Jorge Timón‏ @timoncc Apr 8
      Replying to @fnietom @ercwl and

      My point is that it makes sense to do an atomic swap between btc and an issued asset instead of having to trust a scrow. I think the options use case is more clear though.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Fernando Nieto‏ @fnietom Apr 9
      Replying to @timoncc @ercwl and

      You are using an escrow in all cases: - Mined blockchain: miners - Federated chains: signers - e-cash: issuer (and maybe additional auditors) Once you enter a contract that may result with your ownership of an issued asset, your are implicitly trusting the issuer to honour it.

      3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Bruce Fenton‏ @brucefenton Apr 9
      Replying to @fnietom @timoncc and

      You are trusting the issuer anyway with a share - a token is just a digital share that is much easier to move and doesn't require a centralized database to track.

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Fernando Nieto‏ @fnietom Apr 9
      Replying to @brucefenton @timoncc and

      I'd love to see how blockchain tokens are any easier to move than blinded bearer certificates. A decentratralised database provides no benefit in this case.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Bruce Fenton‏ @brucefenton Apr 9
      Replying to @fnietom @timoncc and

      Right now it takes 3 weeks to move securities between brokers at the retail level 2-3 business days at the institutional level. A token can be moved in minutes.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Fernando Nieto‏ @fnietom Apr 9
      Replying to @brucefenton @timoncc and

      And a blinded bearer certificate in milliseconds. This has nothing to do with the bureaucracy that causes those 3 weeks delays.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    9. Bruce Fenton‏ @brucefenton Apr 9
      Replying to @fnietom @timoncc and

      The bureaucracy is due to the reliance on trusted third parties that slow the system: DTCC, clearing, transfer agents etc. They are required today because otherwise no one knows who owns what- they keep centralized ledgers. With a token the ledger is on a chain & DTCC is obsolete

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    10. Fernando Nieto‏ @fnietom Apr 9
      Replying to @brucefenton @timoncc and

      Times could be reduced to milliseconds by using the right technology even if you don't remove trusted third parties. But what I'm trying to tell you is that you can remove all those trusted third parties without using a blockchain, hence not paying for expensive PoW validation.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      Simon Belak‏ @sbelak Apr 9
      Replying to @fnietom @brucefenton and

      It's not clear to me that running [additional] infrastructure required for equivalent functionality and availability would be economically more sound than paying PoW cost. Especially since much more would need to be payed upfront.

      5:25 AM - 9 Apr 2018
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Fernando Nieto‏ @fnietom Apr 9
          Replying to @sbelak @brucefenton and

          I understand it is difficult to realise PoW security txs cost when it is mostly subsidized via inflation. In fact, @brucefenton is trying to solve a problem that wasn't solved before, although the technology has been available, just because the incentives were not big enough.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Fernando Nieto‏ @fnietom Apr 9
          Replying to @fnietom @sbelak and

          You just need to look at how HFT trades execute in nanoseconds to understand that when the right incentives exist, transactions happen much faster.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Simon Belak‏ @sbelak Apr 9
          Replying to @fnietom @brucefenton and

          I understand that. My point is, that perhaps Bitcoin gives you enough infrastructure that something that was previously didn't pass cost/benefit threshold, now does.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Fernando Nieto‏ @fnietom Apr 9
          Replying to @sbelak @brucefenton and

          Using Bitcoin network is problematic because colored coins could mess up incentives, but what @brucefenton did is to create an independent shitcoin specific for this purpose, so he cannot leverage Bitcoin existing infrastructure/security.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        6. Simon Belak‏ @sbelak Apr 9
          Replying to @fnietom @brucefenton and

          I don't have a particular horse in this race, just find Bitcoin-as-infrastructure fascinating. If the assets the coloured coins represent would be denominated (and traded) in BTC, it wouldn't mess up incentives.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Fernando Nieto‏ @fnietom Apr 9
          Replying to @sbelak @brucefenton and

          Fernando Nieto Retweeted Pieter Wuille

          Some knowledgeable people think different...https://twitter.com/pwuille/status/981868137741258752 …

          Fernando Nieto added,

          Pieter Wuille @pwuille
          Replying to @brucefenton @MrHodl and 3 others
          It's complicated. Mined blockchains dealing with transactions in other currencies than the mined coin is incentive incompatible: you risk a chain that gets filled with transactions that don't benefit (and compete with) the mined coin, reducing its value, and thus its security.
          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        8. Simon Belak‏ @sbelak Apr 9
          Replying to @fnietom @brucefenton and

          That's why I said denominated in BTC. Also since Bitcoin is permissionless if there exists such an incentive attack it will happen sooner or later and dissuading legit use cases is probably not the best nor strongest defence.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. Fernando Nieto‏ @fnietom Apr 9
          Replying to @sbelak @brucefenton and

          Not sure what you mean by 'denominated in BTC'. I don't think it is easily exploitable as an attack but seems to be a reason to discourage that path. I don't have any deep knowledge about that matter anyway.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        10. 3 more replies

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