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sapinker's profile
Steven Pinker
Steven Pinker
Steven Pinker
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@sapinker

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Steven PinkerVerified account

@sapinker

Cognitive scientist at Harvard.

Boston, MA
pinker.wjh.harvard.edu
Joined January 2010

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    Steven Pinker‏Verified account @sapinker Apr 24

    If Solar And Wind Are So Cheap, Why Are They Making Electricity So Expensive? An explanation of this counterintuitive phenomenon by Michael Shellenberger. via @forbeshttps://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2018/04/23/if-solar-and-wind-are-so-cheap-why-are-they-making-electricity-more-expensive/#ed045b91dc66 …

    9:25 AM - 24 Apr 2018
    • 172 Retweets
    • 344 Likes
    • projectnowmedia mondomori Peter Haring Mike Greaves d 'O'yle Austin Powers EigenEagle Massimiliano Cane Kelly Anne
    36 replies 172 retweets 344 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. John Raymond Hanger‏ @johnrhanger Apr 24
        Replying to @sapinker @ShellenbergerMD @Forbes

        This is cherry picking data to say the least. In the USA, there is no correlation between high renewables penetrations and high prices. None. Take a look at TX, SD, Iowa, OK, ND, Kansas with huge wind penetrations of up to 30% or more and below average power prices.

        3 replies 0 retweets 11 likes
      3. Mike Shellenberger‏Verified account @ShellenbergerMD Apr 24
        Replying to @johnrhanger @sapinker @Forbes

        Every single one of those states except for TX, fracking central, saw electricity prices rise significantly

        0 replies 1 retweet 2 likes
      4. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Joseph Urban‏ @jurban1997 Apr 24
        Replying to @sapinker @Forbes

        I just wish the reporter spent more than 10% of the article addressing the cause. And, more effective storage would smooth out the volatility issues - which seem to me like a moderate influence on the real causes of the increasing costs.

        2 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
      3. Mike Shellenberger‏Verified account @ShellenbergerMD Apr 24
        Replying to @jurban1997 @sapinker @Forbes

        The whole article is about the causes. And I did address storage — it's part of what makes electricity in solar and wind-heavy places.

        0 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
      4. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Mike Shellenberger‏Verified account @ShellenbergerMD Apr 24
        Replying to @Nick_Berkley @sapinker @Forbes

        I address storage as one of the causes

        2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. Tweet unavailable
      4. Mike Shellenberger‏Verified account @ShellenbergerMD Apr 24
        Replying to @Nick_Berkley @sapinker @Forbes

        It is an inherent, physical problem that cannot be solve without increasing the cost of electricity. Think about it.

        2 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
      5. Tweet unavailable
      6. Mike Shellenberger‏Verified account @ShellenbergerMD Apr 24
        Replying to @Nick_Berkley @sapinker @Forbes

        Alternative:http://environmentalprogress.org/big-news/2017/11/21/why-i-changed-my-mind-about-nuclear-power-transcript-of-michael-shellenbergers-tedx-berlin-2017 …

        0 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
      7. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Erik Östholm‏ @Erik_Ostholm Apr 24
        Replying to @sapinker @Forbes

        You may want your favorite engineer to explain the difference between power and energy. And of course - the implications to electricity production....

        1 reply 1 retweet 2 likes
      3. Mike Shellenberger‏Verified account @ShellenbergerMD Apr 24
        Replying to @Erik_Ostholm @sapinker @Forbes

        It's implicit here, but I agree, too many people — including journalists — mix the two up.

        0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      4. End of conversation
      1. Mark‏ @Mark_Comment Apr 24
        Replying to @sapinker @Forbes

        The unreliable nature of most renewables and high storage costs mean that renewables can at most be 10-15% of the grid. Any number above this requires detailed analysis and means increased electricity costs

        0 replies 1 retweet 3 likes
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      1. New conversation
      2. Mike Patterson‏ @patterson087 Apr 24
        Replying to @sapinker @Forbes

        Great explanation by @ShellenbergerMD of why media doesn't report why wind and solar cost so much.pic.twitter.com/K8aMti58EC

        1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      3. Joseph Urban‏ @jurban1997 Apr 24
        Replying to @patterson087 @sapinker and

        Yet he is heavily relying upon the Hirth study that states in its conclusion: " A more thorough evaluation of specific flexibility options is warranted, including a richer set of storage technologies..." And storage tech is progressing:http://rameznaam.com/2015/10/14/how-cheap-can-energy-storage-get/ …

        0 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
      4. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. John Raymond Hanger‏ @johnrhanger Apr 24
        Replying to @sapinker @Forbes

        @ShellenbergerMD CA long ago decided to invest in EE to control power bills. Bills not rates. The combination of high EE expenditures, high energy efficiency standards, and weather mean CA residential power bills are well below national average. See: https://www.eia.gov/electricity/sales_revenue_price/pdf/table5_a.pdf …

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      3. Mike Shellenberger‏Verified account @ShellenbergerMD Apr 24
        Replying to @johnrhanger @sapinker @Forbes

        Actually, it's mostly from our moderate climate and lack of heavy industry and only 20% from efficiency policies: https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:qt715mj7086/thesis_final-augmented.pdf …

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      4. Cassandra Tully‏ @CassandraMTully Apr 24
        Replying to @ShellenbergerMD @johnrhanger and

        So true and so lost on anyone who looks at “average” costs and usage. Marginal rates in California are incredibly high. Mr Hanger may think that that making a useful product like electricity very expensive is “efficient” but it may be more accurate to call it economic suicide

        1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      5. John Raymond Hanger‏ @johnrhanger Apr 24
        Replying to @CassandraMTully @ShellenbergerMD and

        Where to start? Power prices should include carbon costs. I am glad CA has started to internalize those costs. Other states/countries should do so. Nukes and renewables should not have to compete against coal/gas generation that uses atmosphere as free dump.

        2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      6. Mike Shellenberger‏Verified account @ShellenbergerMD Apr 26
        Replying to @johnrhanger @CassandraMTully and

        You are wrong:https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2018/04/25/yes-solar-and-wind-really-do-increase-electricity-prices-and-for-inherently-physical-reasons/ …

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      7. John Raymond Hanger‏ @johnrhanger Apr 27
        Replying to @ShellenbergerMD @CassandraMTully and

        @duncan__c Always possible that I am wrong about many things and love to learn. BUT not on this one...You ignore states like Kentucky, WVA with little solar/wind but big price increases. All the states I cited have cheap to average rate power plus big wind/solar. Cheap & clean.pic.twitter.com/ELJIjszlR2

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      8. John Raymond Hanger‏ @johnrhanger Apr 27
        Replying to @johnrhanger @ShellenbergerMD and

        2. @duncan__c So we have ND, SD, KS, OK, TX with large amounts of wind & solar and electricity prices at or below average. A good result for climate and consumers. We have TX and Nevada with actually declining rates and large amounts of wind and solar.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      9. John Raymond Hanger‏ @johnrhanger Apr 27
        Replying to @johnrhanger @ShellenbergerMD and

        3. As to Hawaii, HI gets most of its power from burning oil. 2009 was a year when oil prices cratered to about $30/barrel. Prices for oil have about doubled since 2009. You blame solar for a 22% increase in power prices in HI since 2009. How about oil? HI inflation rate? Wow!

        4 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      10. 1 more reply

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