I think this is semi-deliberate: they found that thinking in terms of “maps” instead of “representations” clarified their thinking considerably, so they went with it. Indeed, it does make the story much more precise & tractable, at the cost of making it much more wrong.
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Replying to @Meaningness @drossbucket and
The essay undermines this by pointing out the even literal maps don’t work anything like the way LW uses the word. There’s tons of nebulosity in there, not just uncertainty or imprecision. (But less nebulosity than with most representations)
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Replying to @Meaningness @drossbucket and
Maybe this idea about “entanglement” and “mutual information” could focus the criticism a bit? This seems to underpin Yudkowsky’s general conception of representation.pic.twitter.com/i0uqS3McCh
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Replying to @JakeOrthwein @Meaningness and
I only vaguely know this particular post, but 3 years ago I got the idea that EY had a coherent story on representation and I just had to work out what it was. so god help me I ended up reading a pile of sequences posts, Arbital pages and ancient pdfs...
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Replying to @drossbucket @JakeOrthwein and
... I was motivated by the fact that sometimes (as in your screenshot) he shows an understanding that representation should ground out in interaction somewhere. But exactly how he wants that to work is hugely contradictory across his writing, and sometime flat out absent...
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Replying to @drossbucket @JakeOrthwein and
Never wrote it up properly (and I'd write it differently now anyway) but here are some rough notes, tl;dr it's a mess https://drossbucket.com/newsletters/march-2018/ … I never got to the mutual information stuff, which would only add to the mess :)
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Replying to @drossbucket @JakeOrthwein and
y/n? 1. The LessWrong/etc. account of symbols/concepts/reality doesn’t say where the concepts/ontology come from. 2. Where the concepts/ontology come from is the only hard or interesting part. [...] N. Therefore, the LW account is not just wrong but completely wrong and also bad.
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Replying to @meditationstuff @JakeOrthwein and
Yep basically agree with 1 and 2 - figuring out axes for your clusterspace is the hard part. Dunno about completely wrong but certainly very limited if it has little to say about the hard part!
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Replying to @drossbucket @JakeOrthwein and
Ok. And/but it seems that people are having at least the experience of getting tremendous *epistemological*-feeling *usefulness* out of being exposed to the map/territory distinction, and I think we need an explanation for that? Seems more than any-port-in-storm or sociological.
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Replying to @meditationstuff @drossbucket and
huh, I don't remember finding *any* of the LW sequences useful new conceptual info when I first read them. I got HUGE personal growth out of meeting the community but that was because it was my first experience with counterculture.
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if you take a smart person, age 20, and then try introducing her to people who say "hm, have you tried...loosening up and being more confident? try it, it's fun, we're doing it and we haven't been struck by any lightning bolts yet!" the results are pretty dramatic.
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Replying to @s_r_constantin @meditationstuff and
(I'm skeptical of the project "introduce fanfic readers to memes about Thinking and Saving The World" but super bullish on "introduce STEM nerds to each other and to hippie culture or SF-fandom culture")
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Replying to @s_r_constantin @meditationstuff and
(in particular, "take people who have already demonstrated they can Do Hard Things and get them to hang out together and stop anxiously limiting themselves" is feasible & powerful, while "make ordinary people into competent people" is still an unsolved problem)
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