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s_r_constantin's profile
Sarah Constantin
Sarah Constantin
Sarah Constantin
@s_r_constantin

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Sarah Constantin

@s_r_constantin

Math/ML/data-science person now working on solving aging...and helping with COVID19?! Founder, LRI and Daphnia Labs. Married to @oscredwin

Be
srconstantin.posthaven.com
Joined February 2019

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    1. Sarah Constantin‏ @s_r_constantin Feb 4
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      (These aren’t all the possibilities, to be clear; just generating a few plausible ideas.)

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    2. Sarah Constantin‏ @s_r_constantin Feb 4
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      it's also possible, as @selentelechia suggested, that people get trained on *clumsy* signals; e.g. if people get mad every time you don't instantaneously do something you don't know how to do, you might infer that this means "instantaneous obedience is obligatory"...

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    3. Sarah Constantin‏ @s_r_constantin Feb 4
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      even though the people who got mad at you *didn't* believe that instantaneous obedience is obligatory. Maybe you need a *few* sources of authoritarian ideology to promote the hypothesis to your attention, but *mostly* you're being trained on people's unintentional signals.

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    4. Sarah Constantin‏ @s_r_constantin Feb 4
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      Anyhow. Instantaneous obedience is *impossible.* Not "evil" or "tyrannical"; it literally doesn't exist. You *can't* do what you're told directly. You *have* to map it to how you would do it *first*, and then your reward function has to be drawn to it.

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    5. Sarah Constantin‏ @s_r_constantin Feb 4
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      Other people can't "make you do things." What other people can do is *make you suffer*. They can promote hypotheses to your attention, and the right stimuli in the right order *can* tie you in a knot of trying to believe two contradictory things at once.

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    6. Sarah Constantin‏ @s_r_constantin Feb 4
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      There's a (false, IMO) belief you might call "descriptive authoritarianism" -- the theory that people *can* make other people do things, that instantaneous obedience or direct manipulation is possible.

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    7. Sarah Constantin‏ @s_r_constantin Feb 4
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      There's also a (probably false?) belief you might call "descriptive individualism" -- the theory that other people, or external circumstances, can't have *any* effect on your mind that you can't undo, in one motion, "at will".

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    8. Sarah Constantin‏ @s_r_constantin Feb 4
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      What external circumstances can do is *insert a thing in your awareness*. "I am hearing the phrase 'You should do X.'" You don't get to choose this, I think; it's thrust upon you. Which means that contradictions can be inserted into your "workspace" of awareness.

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    9. Sarah Constantin‏ @s_r_constantin Feb 4
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      You can *resolve* contradictions; if you successfully explain away, make sense of, resolve, the temporary contradiction, you can stop suffering. But you may or may not actually do this. Other people can cause you suffering; you may or may not know how to remove it.

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    10. Sarah Constantin‏ @s_r_constantin Feb 4
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      To tie back to the previous thread on trauma; certain flawed/suboptimal/irrational/etc patterns of thought and behavior are *not inevitable* -- it is false that they are a necessary part of the human condition -- but also, IMO, *not instantly resolvable upon request.*

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      Sarah Constantin‏ @s_r_constantin Feb 4
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      You can't just ask someone "stop being fucked up, please", I think. They *literally can't.* Not as in, "it is impossible for anyone not to be fucked up", but "it is impossible for this person to snap out of it instantly just because you asked."

      2:02 PM - 4 Feb 2020
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      • Adam Strandberg Kyle Josh Levent Æ 1 X 🦉 selentelechia Victor Hugo's Imagination 🆘
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        2. Sarah Constantin‏ @s_r_constantin Feb 4
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          There has to be a *map* of what it would look like to "function well" -- not just at the macro level of "what does a virtuous person look like throughout their life" but "what would being in a good mood look like for me right now".

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        3. Sarah Constantin‏ @s_r_constantin Feb 4
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          It's not that the fucked-up person literally doesn't ever have the capacity to reason, be calm, reflect, etc. But saying the words "be reasonable!" is *not the correct spell to invoke sanity*.

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        4. Sarah Constantin‏ @s_r_constantin Feb 4
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          I have very rough intuitions about what the invoking spell actually might be, but I have the sense that it's kind of like the "sensory trick" or like entrainment in Parkinson's? In a motor disorder you can "forget how" to do a motion, but can be "reminded how" with a prompt.

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        5. Sarah Constantin‏ @s_r_constantin Feb 4
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          You can get back into a sane and well resourced state by getting "off the ground" or getting a "boost" by doing it in a context where it's easier, or by social imitation of someone doing it. It can be easier to sidle in "accidentally" than to try head-on. etc.

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        6. Sarah Constantin‏ @s_r_constantin Feb 4
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          Is this "coddling"? Meh. Maybe. If you think "not coddling" (i.e. JUST demanding reasonableness directly) works, I'm curious to hear either anecdotes or data about this.

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        7. Sarah Constantin‏ @s_r_constantin Feb 4
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          If a person won't "be reasonable" when asked, they either actually, at the attention-reward-function level, don't want to be reasonable (which I tentatively believe isn't a real possibility, but who knows) or they don't have a currently available path/map to being reasonable.

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        8. End of conversation
        1. Victor Hugo's Imagination  🆘‏ @Jeanvaljean689 Feb 4
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          Replying to @s_r_constantin @selentelechia

          ... it gets worse Asking them in such a manner also triggers the shame response, and that inner response often, if not usually/almost always, is EXACTLY what stands between them, and the changes they need to make ...

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