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rsnous's profile
Omar Rizwan
Omar Rizwan
Omar Rizwan
@rsnous

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Omar Rizwan

@rsnous

the astonishing, unfailing Bell System

Garage G & BART
rsnous.com
Joined December 2010

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    Omar Rizwan‏ @rsnous Oct 17

    I'm skeptical of visual programming, especially the most obvious 'blocks instead of text syntax' type. Spreadsheets use a formal, text-based language -- and end users learn spreadsheets fine!

    5:08 PM - 17 Oct 2018
    • 4 Retweets
    • 40 Likes
    • Pavel Bažant Nick Matantsev Brian T. Rice Joel Gustafson Issac Kelly Thomas Ballinger Josh 📍 Lost Leonardo Kórédé
    7 replies 4 retweets 40 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. Omar Rizwan‏ @rsnous Oct 17

        Nardi (1993) points out that it's actually pretty rare for people to have issues with the text syntax of spreadsheet formulas: https://books.google.com/books?id=0drDRT370eoC&pg=PA49 …pic.twitter.com/cQXLCsGI7l

        2 replies 0 retweets 17 likes
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      3. Omar Rizwan‏ @rsnous Oct 17

        Our tools for editing text are pretty good; also, our hardware (keyboards, high-dpi displays) is adapted to it, so it might be a local maximum it's also great that you can edit text 'out of order' & go through invalid states while getting to your ultimate correct program

        6 replies 2 retweets 13 likes
        Show this thread
      4. Omar Rizwan‏ @rsnous Oct 17

        Rather than blindly getting rid of text, make the right formal language and representation for the user's interests. People can be _great_ at learning languages: there's no reason a formal or textual language has to be 'programming' with all its connotationspic.twitter.com/Ud8WByxnX8

        3 replies 1 retweet 10 likes
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      5. Omar Rizwan‏ @rsnous Oct 17

        related is Bret's 'show the data'; block-based 'visual' programming is about showing (the same old) code as blocks, not about 1. showing the data or 2. having a better code for users' interestspic.twitter.com/4eEu4X6Su6

        4 replies 1 retweet 18 likes
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      6. Omar Rizwan‏ @rsnous Oct 24

        also, from the mundane engineering perspective, it's an incredible pain to build a visual environment, compared to just writing a compiler or interpreter routine. huge state space and input space + lots of UI code -> harder to iterate and prototype tool ideas

        5 replies 0 retweets 8 likes
        Show this thread
      7. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Dan 태영  🌿/ 🌱‏ @dantaeyoung Oct 18
        Replying to @rsnous

        You should check out Rhino3d/Grasshopper! It’s a really great graphical programming language for architects/designers, very much used in design practice. (Aka: not a toy language)pic.twitter.com/x2vV7paEfS

        3 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
      3. Omar Rizwan‏ @rsnous Oct 18
        Replying to @dantaeyoung

        Yeah, it seems like the 'node dataflow' kind of visual programming has a much better record; I also hear good things about Quartz Composer, etc

        0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      4. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Shakeel Mahate‏ @smahate Oct 18
        Replying to @rsnous

        A majority of the visual programing tools were marketing gimmicks. I know I worked on one, Visual Age Smalltalk. And I have seen some truly spaghetti code.

        1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
      3. (define nikofeyn me)‏ @nikofeyn Oct 18
        Replying to @smahate @rsnous

        spaghetti code is not a result of the medium. it exists in both visual and textual languages. one can even argue that since visual languages show more structure and relationships between code pieces that it does a better job of showing poor code structuring than text languages.

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      4. End of conversation
      1. (define nikofeyn me)‏ @nikofeyn Oct 18
        Replying to @rsnous

        text-only programs lack a dimension. you can't see the actual flow of data through your program. visual dataflow languages, like labview, give you this. i am convinced that a hybrid approach is generally required but practically zero work is done along these lines.

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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      1. josh 💨‏ @steubens7 Oct 17
        Replying to @rsnous

        spreadsheets fucking ruuuuuule. also watching someone operate a spreadsheet is pretty followable

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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      1. Pavel Bažant‏ @pavel_bazant Oct 27
        Replying to @rsnous

        But spreadsheets are the most successful kind of visual programming! The text in the formulas is not a problem precisely because the rest of the program is visual, keeping the text short!

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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      1. [tavʁaj] Ganbold‏ @riyenakshi Oct 18
        Replying to @rsnous

        formal text-based languages sound like they'd be intimidating, but have people studied the actual difficulties with learning the conceptual framework of programming? (IME people who aren't already familiar with it have a hard time with variables - but spreadsheets solve this)

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