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robinhanson's profile
Robin Hanson
Robin Hanson
Robin Hanson
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@robinhanson

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Robin HansonVerified account

@robinhanson

Let's skip witty repartee & position taking, & discuss enduring fundamental questions. (& my books: http://ageofem.com , http://elephantinthebrain.com )

Fairfax, VA
hanson.gmu.edu
Joined July 2007

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    1. Outrepool‏ @outrepool Oct 13
      Replying to @robinhanson

      I'm of the opinion that the essential characteristics of humanity are in fact the products of an easing of competitiveness. Art, literature, etc, I see as a form of dead-weight loss that humans can afford due to their obvious monopoly on a certain level of intelligence/fitness.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    2. Outrepool‏ @outrepool Oct 13
      Replying to @outrepool @robinhanson

      Of course it's more complicated than this. I see human values the same way I see the male-peacock's feathers. They exist as the product of competition at one level due to an absence of competition at some higher level. They are the positive externalities of sexual competition, 1/

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    3. Outrepool‏ @outrepool Oct 13
      Replying to @outrepool @robinhanson

      but can only exist in the absence of maximal competition at the level of the species/society/techno-human-industrio-capital-system.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    4. Robin Hanson‏Verified account @robinhanson Oct 13
      Replying to @outrepool

      So you object to any future with competition, no matter what the form. Good luck with that.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Outrepool‏ @outrepool Oct 13
      Replying to @robinhanson

      That's not what I said at all. The implication of my argument is that I would like to maintain the exact level of competitiveness (non-maximal) in the environment which gave birth to human values. You're probably my favorite academic, Hanson, please be charitable.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    6. Robin Hanson‏Verified account @robinhanson Oct 13
      Replying to @outrepool

      The last two million years were a pretty competitive environment between humans, and the age of em remains a similarly competitive environment, still only between human minds. So if you liked the human past, it seems you should like the age of em.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    7. Outrepool‏ @outrepool Oct 13
      Replying to @robinhanson

      Tribal societies are not nearly as competitive. Even now we see examples of highly competitive cultures which I would like to avoid becoming the norm. Different groups of humans have different values due to different environment/selection. Not all values equal, imo.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    8. Robin Hanson‏Verified account @robinhanson Oct 13
      Replying to @outrepool

      I don't see why you think tribal societies aren't very competitive over hundreds of thousands of years. The strong competition seems obvious to me.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Outrepool‏ @outrepool Oct 13
      Replying to @robinhanson

      African tribes do not appear to be affected by same extreme competitiveness as say, South Korean universities. Europeans cooperate in prisoners dilemma more than non-Euros. Do you think Em era will select for more or less cooperation than now? 1/

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Outrepool‏ @outrepool Oct 13
      Replying to @outrepool @robinhanson

      This whole conversation is really about the orthogonality thesis. I thought you accepted the thesis, but correct me if I am wrong; I can't find any of your writings on it online. The simple question is, can economic forces strip the universe of stereotypicaly 'human' values?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Robin Hanson‏Verified account @robinhanson Oct 14
      Replying to @outrepool

      Okay, it seems you don't want any future competition when values are plastic and the environment is different from the ancient human forager environment, for fear values might change. Now that actually happened during the farming era; do you dislike how values changed then?

      4:09 AM - 14 Oct 2018
      • 1 Like
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      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. Outrepool‏ @outrepool Oct 14
          Replying to @robinhanson

          It's complicated. I'm not opposed to all value changes, but I fear we play a game of chicken where the further we get from the ancestral environment the more likely there will be a discontinuity in values. There are two competing rates, rate of environ change and rate of adaption

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Outrepool‏ @outrepool Oct 14
          Replying to @outrepool @robinhanson

          When the rate of environmental change is large compared to adaptation rate, the species will suffer or it will transform (and potentially have very different values). I see the age of Em scenario as a bypassing of the limits on adaptation (through evolution). (cont)

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Outrepool‏ @outrepool Oct 14
          Replying to @outrepool @robinhanson

          When we can add/delete genetic/neural-architecture code with the press of a button I don't expect continuity with human values. I think stripping oneself of non-productive components will give a competitive advantage greater than any pressure to remain broadly-human in this env.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. End of conversation

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