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raphlinus's profile
Raph Levien
Raph Levien
Raph Levien
@raphlinus

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Raph Levien

@raphlinus

Rust. Fonts. Graphics. Quaker. Independent. he/him

Berkeley, CA
levien.com
Joined May 2009

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    Raph Levien‏ @raphlinus Jan 17
    • Report Tweet
    • Report NetzDG Violation

    My response to the recent Actix drama about unsafe, with a modest proposal how to hopefully make things better:https://raphlinus.github.io/rust/2020/01/18/soundness-pledge.html …

    9:26 PM - 17 Jan 2020
    • 19 Retweets
    • 76 Likes
    • 𝝡𝝙𝝘𝝞𝝝 Petter Wichman MBL Bruce Alec Max Simon Crosby Doug Tangren 🐑 chekicheki.musume David Pendray
    6 replies 19 retweets 76 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. Chris Jefferson‏ @Azumanga Jan 18
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        Replying to @raphlinus

        I'm going to be honest, I feel this would make things worse. It comes across as turning soundness into a religion. Why would I ever specifically mention soundness bugs, compared to any other type of bug? Elevating soundness bugs above others is what caused this problem (I think)

        1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
      3. W. Brian Gourlie‏ @dubya_brian Jan 18
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        Replying to @Azumanga @raphlinus

        Perhaps. But it would be nice to know at a glance some crate’s attitude toward unsafe. Soundness-as-a-tenet would help inform and guide discussions in issue trackers, instead of everybody having different opinions as to the importance of soundness relative to other goals.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. 4 more replies
      1. New conversation
      2. Slyklaw‏ @slyklaw Jan 18
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        Replying to @raphlinus

        I don't get this drama thing. If you don't like how the project is run, fork it and run it the way you want.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      3. OZ‏ @eugeniyoz Jan 18
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        Replying to @slyklaw @raphlinus

        People get used to the fact that best results are usually achieved by the collaboration, not by separation.

        0 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
      4. End of conversation
      1. ʟʟoɢiq‏ @llogiq Jan 18
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        Replying to @raphlinus

        There are some costs at work here besides runtime performance and those costs were not addressed by most commenters. I'm dubious such a pledge (or non-pledge) would have helped here.

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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      1. Scott Lott‏ @onlycliches Jan 18
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        Replying to @raphlinus @read_rust

        It seems odd to me that a library author wouldn’t align with the primary goals of Rust. If you want to write unsafe code there’s a million other languages for that.

        0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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      1. New conversation
      2. Giles folding@home Cope  ⚡ 🦀‏ @gilescope Jan 18
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        Replying to @raphlinus

        A soundness pledge could be a bool on the crate metadata to opt into trying to be as secure as possible. I.e. crates would then be opting in to the rust safety dance.

        2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      3. Giles folding@home Cope  ⚡ 🦀‏ @gilescope Jan 18
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        Replying to @gilescope @raphlinus

        I’d like to see more cross-implementation testing of projects (by providing drivers that all implemented a common trait). We should industrialise efforts like https://medium.com/@shnatsel/smoke-testing-rust-http-clients-b8f2ee5db4e6 … - together we are stronger.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. 1 more reply
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      2. OZ‏ @eugeniyoz Jan 17
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        Replying to @raphlinus @read_rust

        you are missing the main reason of this drama: negative reaction (with some nasty, rude comments) was caused not by the fact of using "unsafe", but by the rejection (with kind of rude reasoning) of patches, where unsafe code was replaced by safe, without performance costs.

        1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
      3. OZ‏ @eugeniyoz Jan 17
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        Replying to @eugeniyoz @raphlinus @read_rust

        I agree that unsafe code is unavoidable sometimes, but we clearly have an opportunity to replace unsafe code with safe, we should have REALLY good reasons for not using safe code - big performance cost and 0 chance of vulnerabilities.

        1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      4. 12 more replies

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