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random_walker's profile
Arvind Narayanan
Arvind Narayanan
Arvind Narayanan
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@random_walker

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Arvind NarayananVerified account

@random_walker

Princeton prof. I use Twitter to share my research & commentary on surveillance capitalism, infosec, cryptocurrencies, AI ethics, tech policy, & academic life.

Princeton, NJ
cs.princeton.edu/~arvindn/
Joined December 2007

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    1. Arvind Narayanan‏Verified account @random_walker 29 Dec 2019
      • Report Tweet

      A new paper has been making the rounds with the intriguing claim that YouTube has a *de-radicalizing* influence. https://arxiv.org/abs/1912.11211  Having read the paper, I wanted to call it wrong, but that would give the paper too much credit, because it is not even wrong. Let me explain.

      90 replies 2,229 retweets 5,048 likes
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    2. Arvind Narayanan‏Verified account @random_walker 29 Dec 2019
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      Radicalization via YouTube, as widely understood, is when someone watches a few partisan videos and unwittingly starts a feedback loop in which the algorithm gradually recommends more and more extreme content and the viewer starts to believe more and more of it.

      12 replies 116 retweets 909 likes
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    3. Arvind Narayanan‏Verified account @random_walker 29 Dec 2019
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      The key is that the user’s beliefs, preferences, and behavior shift over time, and the algorithm both learns and encourages this, nudging the user gradually. But this study didn’t analyze real users. So the crucial question becomes: what model of user behavior did they use?

      2 replies 90 retweets 836 likes
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    4. Arvind Narayanan‏Verified account @random_walker 29 Dec 2019
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      The answer: they didn’t! They reached their sweeping conclusions by analyzing YouTube *without logging in*, based on sidebar recommendations for a sample of channels (not even the user’s home page because, again, there’s no user). Whatever they measured, it’s not radicalization.

      17 replies 157 retweets 1,367 likes
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    5. Arvind Narayanan‏Verified account @random_walker 29 Dec 2019
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      Arvind Narayanan Retweeted Mark Ledwich

      Sidenote: the first author has been on a diatribe about the media, even in the thread introducing the paper. It doesn’t undermine the paper by itself, but given that they disingenuously exclude how radicalization might actually work, it… raises questions.https://twitter.com/mark_ledwich/status/1210743217982803970 …

      Arvind Narayanan added,

      Mark Ledwich @mark_ledwich
      4. My new article explains in detail. It takes aim at the NYT (in particular, @kevinroose) who have been on myth-filled crusade vs social media. We should start questioning the authoritative status of outlets that have soiled themselves with agendas. https://medium.com/@markoledwich/youtube-radicalization-an-authoritative-saucy-story-28f73953ed17 …
      Show this thread
      7 replies 82 retweets 900 likes
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    6. Arvind Narayanan‏Verified account @random_walker 29 Dec 2019
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      Others have pointed out many more limitations of the paper, including the fact that it claims to refute years of allegations of radicalization using late-2019 measurements. Sure, but that’s a bit like pointing out typos in the article that announced "Dewey Defeats Truman".

      1 reply 55 retweets 790 likes
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    7. Arvind Narayanan‏Verified account @random_walker 29 Dec 2019
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      Incidentally, I spent about a year studying YouTube radicalization with several students. We dismissed simplistic research designs (like the one in the paper) by about week 2, and realized that the phenomenon results from users/the algorithm/video creators adapting to each other.

      7 replies 150 retweets 1,215 likes
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    8. Arvind Narayanan‏Verified account @random_walker 29 Dec 2019
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      Let’s not forget: the peddlers of extreme content adversarially navigate YouTube’s algorithm, optimizing the clickbaitiness of their video thumbnails and titles, while reputable sources attempt to maintain some semblance of impartiality. (None of this is modeled in the paper.)

      8 replies 114 retweets 937 likes
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    9. Arvind Narayanan‏Verified account @random_walker 29 Dec 2019
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      After tussling with these complexities, my students and I ended up with nothing publishable because we realized that there’s no good way for external researchers to quantitatively study radicalization. I think YouTube can study it internally, but only in a very limited way.

      16 replies 123 retweets 1,011 likes
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    10. Arvind Narayanan‏Verified account @random_walker 29 Dec 2019
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      If you’re wondering how such a widely discussed problem has attracted so little scientific study before this paper, that’s exactly why. Many have tried, but chose to say nothing rather than publish meaningless results, leaving the field open for authors with lower standards.

      14 replies 154 retweets 1,266 likes
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      Arvind Narayanan‏Verified account @random_walker 29 Dec 2019
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      In our data-driven world, the claim that we don’t have a good way to study something quantitatively may sound shocking. The reality even worse — in many cases we don’t even have the vocabulary to ask meaningful quantitative *questions* about complex socio-technical systems.

      4:33 AM - 29 Dec 2019
      • 483 Retweets
      • 1,924 Likes
      • Shalabh Goel Kozmique Jacob Rodrigo Gamboa akinyi omer Jakub Lanc Flameyyy Ninad Pundalik Blanca
      20 replies 483 retweets 1,924 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Arvind Narayanan‏Verified account @random_walker 29 Dec 2019
          • Report Tweet

          Consider the paper’s definition of radicalization: "YouTube’s algorithm [exposes users] to more extreme content than they would otherwise." Savvy readers are probably screaming: There is no "otherwise"! There is no YouTube without the algorithm! There is no neutral!

          9 replies 98 retweets 1,051 likes
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        3. Arvind Narayanan‏Verified account @random_walker 29 Dec 2019
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          That’s the note on which I’d like to end: a plea to consider that the available quantitative methods can’t answer everything. And I want to thank the journalists who’ve been doing the next best thing — telling the stories of people led down a rabbit hole by YouTube’s algorithm.

          41 replies 172 retweets 1,483 likes
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        4. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. Andrew Kemendo‏ @AndrewKemendo 29 Dec 2019
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @random_walker @andronovhopf

          I'd argue we don't have a way to quantitatively study MOST things in the universe People overlook how unbelievably hard it is to instrument a system to produce data Also, humans don't like to be instrumented & IRB's discourage it. There are hard limits to studying humans

          1 reply 1 retweet 13 likes
        3. Elle O'Brien, Ph.D.‏ @andronovhopf 30 Dec 2019
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @AndrewKemendo @random_walker

          Right-there have been soooooo many times that I’ve abandoned a research question after realizing I couldn’t ethically or adequately address it using any sound methods I knew. And it’s always hard to say no to a question but you have to do work you can live with.

          1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
        4. 3 more replies
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        2. Sebastian H‏ @Sebasti01463369 29 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @random_walker @djw172

          This is the problem with political scientists dealing with “charisma” and politicians. There is no easy way to quantify it, so a bunch of them just pretend it can’t be that important.

          2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
        3. Nathan Shedroff‏ @nathanshedroff 29 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @Sebasti01463369 @random_walker @djw172

          This is also the problem with economists ignoring qualitative issues because they're difficult to measure quantitatively and then decrying that those aren't important anyway—producing horrifyingly oversimplified models that get used anyway.

          0 replies 1 retweet 3 likes
        4. End of conversation
        1. CurseOfGab‏ @GabCurse 29 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @random_walker

          A #quantitative tool is still a tool; whose results are: . #interpreted . used . often misused . & frequently abused 2 get the answer 1 wants Those who worship at the altar of #Analytics, to the exclusion of Good 'Ole Thought & #PeerReview, are condemned to Bad Results #MATHpic.twitter.com/G9VrabMLT9

          0 replies 1 retweet 4 likes
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        1. Paul Baclace‏ @baclace 29 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @random_walker @vboykis

          Social media is an open system, so controlled experiments are not possible. This sounds like a theme of Danny Hillis' "Entanglement" article (where he views "the Enlightenment" as formal methods)https://medium.com/the-long-now-foundation/the-enlightenment-is-dead-long-live-the-entanglement-bcaed951b528 …

          0 replies 1 retweet 3 likes
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        1. Daniela Ávido‏ @danavido 29 Dec 2019
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          Replying to @random_walker

          Very interesting thread. An anthropologist may be a good partner in this research, I assume the users can be thought of as members of a community, especially if the anthropologist is familiar with digital environments. Just a thought.

          0 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
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