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ploeh's profile
Mark Seemann
Mark Seemann
Mark Seemann
@ploeh

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Mark Seemann

@ploeh

Danish software design

Copenhagen
Joined May 2009

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    1. Uncle Bob Martin‏ @unclebobmartin Jun 4
      • Report Tweet

      Software is more like science than mathematics. Mathematical expressions are provable, scientific theories are merely demonstrable. Math is deductive. Science is empirical. Software is empirical. We demonstrate, but do not prove, correctness.

      61 replies 448 retweets 1,361 likes
      Show this thread
    2. Uncle Bob Martin‏ @unclebobmartin Jun 4
      • Report Tweet

      Static typing is an attempt to make software more mathematical. Type correctness is deductive and provable. However, type correctness does not imply behavioral correctness. Even when fully type correct the behavior must be demonstrated empirically.

      10 replies 21 retweets 118 likes
      Show this thread
    3. Uncle Bob Martin‏ @unclebobmartin Jun 4
      • Report Tweet

      This doesn’t make type systems useless. On the contrary, many people find type systems to be invaluable. However, it does mean that type systems do not change software from a science to a mathematics. In the end, software remains an empirical science.

      3 replies 11 retweets 55 likes
      Show this thread
    4. Uncle Bob Martin‏ @unclebobmartin Jun 4
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      Scientific theories are demonstrated through experiments. We trust those theories only when experimental evidence is so vastly overloaded that our confidence has so many nines that we can tolerate the occasional glitch.

      2 replies 8 retweets 42 likes
      Show this thread
    5. Uncle Bob Martin‏ @unclebobmartin Jun 4
      • Report Tweet

      In software those experiments are tests. We demonstrate correctness by executing enough tests to raise our confidence to a level that has so many nines we feel safe deploying.

      3 replies 9 retweets 72 likes
      Show this thread
    6. Uncle Bob Martin‏ @unclebobmartin Jun 4
      • Report Tweet

      There is no escape from this. Whether you use static, or dynamic typing, you must still demonstrate correctness by executing tests. Static typing does not reduce that number of tests, because those tests are behavioral and empirical.

      11 replies 16 retweets 73 likes
      Show this thread
      Mark Seemann‏ @ploeh Jun 4
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      Replying to @unclebobmartin

      I respectfully disagree with this. Some type systems allow null references. In those type systems, you must write tests that demonstrate how the SUT interacts with null input. In other type systems (e.g. Haskell) nulls don't exist. You can't meaningfully write an equivalent test

      6:09 AM - 4 Jun 2019
      • 23 Likes
      • Felipe Guilherme _LOGI_ Kit Eason Niek Austin Salonen Bruce Johnston Gareth Hubball Petar Repac Justin J Stark
      3 replies 0 retweets 23 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Mark Seemann‏ @ploeh Jun 4
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @ploeh @unclebobmartin

          That's just the simplest example that fits in a tweet. With @yminsky's words, algebraic data types in general enable you to design your APIs so that you can 'make illegal states unrepresentable'. Every time you can do that, that's one or more tests you don't have to write.

          1 reply 4 retweets 20 likes
        3. Mark Seemann‏ @ploeh Jun 4
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @ploeh @unclebobmartin @yminsky

          TBC, that doesn't mean that we don't have to write tests. We have this little issue called the halting problem from which we can derive that we can't make a Turing complete language that is guaranteed to 'work' if it compiles. But we can push the slider towards fewer tests.

          2 replies 1 retweet 19 likes
        4. 11 more replies
        1. New conversation
        2. Mark Seemann‏ @ploeh Jun 8
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          Replying to @ploeh @unclebobmartin

          Here's an explicit example of how static typing makes some tests redundant.https://blog.ploeh.dk/2018/07/09/typing-and-testing-problem-23 …

          2 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
        3. Uncle Bob Martin‏ @unclebobmartin Jun 8
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @ploeh

          LOL!! High-5!! “To paraphrase Robert C. Martin: as the types become more generic, the tests become more redundant ”. Brilliant! As a debating strategy this blog highlights how ineffectual and intellectually bankrupt insults are. Respect.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        4. 1 more reply
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        2. Dave Schinkel‏ @DaveSchinkel Jun 9
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          Replying to @ploeh @unclebobmartin

          I'd much rather see a conversation about how TDD or Type Systems help you drive the design of your code or Domain Driven Design rather than "how many tests I have to write" debates. I'd rather discuss the merits and other benefits TDD or typed systems give you besides coverage

          1 reply 1 retweet 1 like
        3. Uncle Bob Martin‏ @unclebobmartin Jun 10
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @DaveSchinkel @ploeh

          I don’t think you’ll be disappointed. <grin>.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        4. End of conversation

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