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pcwalton's profile
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
@pcwalton

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Patrick Walton

@pcwalton

Research engineer at Mozilla

San Francisco, CA
pcwalton.github.io
Joined November 2009

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    1. comex‏ @comex 21 Feb 2018
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      Go’s new “minimal version selection” system (https://research.swtch.com/vgo-mvs ) is interesting. It‘s tempting to just write off as NIH: “lockfiles are complicated, so let’s not use them and instead /never upgrade anything ever/ by default”. Simplicity at a cost, like other Go decisions…

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    2. comex‏ @comex 21 Feb 2018
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      ...bbut, that wouldn’t be entirely fair, because lockfiles (like Cargo’s) have the same behavior of requiring explicit action to upgrade, albeit only for executables rather than libraries. New packages use latest versions of their deps by default, but existing ones stagnate.

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    3. comex‏ @comex 21 Feb 2018
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      There are benefits to differentiate between the cases, although… I’m not sure I fully understand the reasoning. But there also seem to be benefits to Go’s approach of not doing so. In some cases may actually encourage more upgrades, which has both pros and cons.

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    4. comex‏ @comex 21 Feb 2018
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      (Reasoning: if “periodically update all deps to latest” becomes standard practice for libraries too, and the latest dep versions then become the *minimum* required, it will force downstreams to update everything if they want to update anything, incl for urgent security fixes.)

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    5. comex‏ @comex 21 Feb 2018
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      Of course, there’s a flipside: if people really want to avoid updating everything - for fear of breakage - then they *won’t* update anything, again including in the case of urgent security fixes!

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    6. comex‏ @comex 21 Feb 2018
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      But anyway, I think both Go and Cargo are trying to solve the wrong problem to begin with. The right problem is: how can we *guarantee* that updated versions are API compatible with old ones? If the compiler can do that, a lot of other things fall into place.

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    7. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 21 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @comex

      Isn’t that literally reducible to the halting problem? (This isn’t a pedantic point; it seems intractable.)

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    8. comex‏ @comex 21 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @pcwalton

      Well, I’m actually just thinking of ensuring the types are compatible. Runtime behavior is not tractable, but especially in a language like Rust, “it compiles” is a strong guarantee. (…although technically Rust’s type system is TC, so it still reduces to the halting problem :)

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      Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 21 Feb 2018
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      Replying to @comex

      I’m not sure that’s strong enough of a guarantee. Go used that criterion to define stability and broke code due to behavioral differences.

      7:15 PM - 21 Feb 2018
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        1. comex‏ @comex 21 Feb 2018
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          Replying to @pcwalton

          Well… I don’t think that should be the definition of stability (in any language), just the subset of it that can (theoretically) be checked. And sure, such a check wouldn’t completely rule out breakage. But I think it’d still be massively better than not having it.

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