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pcwalton's profile
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
@pcwalton

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Patrick Walton

@pcwalton

Research engineer at Mozilla

San Francisco, CA
pcwalton.github.io
Joined November 2009

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    Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton Apr 4
    • Report Tweet
    • Report NetzDG Violation

    The reason why not having undefined behavior makes systems programming easier for beginners is that it makes the language abstraction less leaky. You don’t have to know how the language is implemented to be productive. You learn that later at your own pace.

    1:49 PM - 4 Apr 2020
    • 16 Retweets
    • 149 Likes
    • T Jesse Ruderman Roman Lipovsky Sunjay eddyb, thriving in isolation, Peeyush Kushwaha Dmitry Rusakov Forger Emmanuel Antony
    3 replies 16 retweets 149 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d Apr 4
        • Report Tweet
        • Report NetzDG Violation
        Replying to @pcwalton @mycoliza

        you can probably find an undefined behaviour to surprise any experienced C/C++ programmer. the empty infinite loop elision in C++ is a fun one (though LLVM has what i _think_ is a bug, where it does this in C too which doesn't _seem_ to allow it; hmmmm, is Rust affected?)

        2 replies 0 retweets 9 likes
      3. Saleem Rashid‏ @saleemrash1d Apr 4
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        Replying to @saleemrash1d @pcwalton @mycoliza

        ARGHJKAHDKJS Rust has the same issue but LLVM at least generates UD2 instructions at the point it deems "unreachable" in the Rust. the C just runs straight into the .rodata section and crashes and burns. https://rust.godbolt.org/z/7BTV_F pic.twitter.com/CQSCo55e1E

        1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
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      1. John Ripley‏ @jhripley Apr 4
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        Replying to @pcwalton

        It makes it easier for experts too. Every piece of systems programming quickly gains too many moving pieces to confidently keep in your head at the same time, or gains dependencies where assumptions break.

        0 replies 1 retweet 9 likes
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      1. danny mcClanahan (destroying the patent system)‏ @hipsterelectron Apr 4
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        Replying to @pcwalton

        i used to think it was a good idea to teach C to students first not to be productive but to understand how it’s implemented and then moving onto other levels of abstraction. that was for a curriculum that used c++ though — i agree it’s better to avoid such a trial by fire at all

        0 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
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