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pcwalton's profile
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
@pcwalton

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Patrick Walton

@pcwalton

Research engineer at Mozilla

San Francisco, CA
pcwalton.github.io
Joined November 2009

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    1. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @mitsuhiko

      I'm absolutely not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that the fact that almost no meaningful AAA system exists for distributed software development teams is an interesting and worthwhile problem to focus attention on.

      1 reply 0 retweets 10 likes
    2. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @pcwalton @mitsuhiko

      I mean, we have like N=47,362 incompatible chat protocols and easily exp(N) worth of JS frameworks and maybe _one_ serious attempt at thinking about distributed software update security (TUF) which every time I even mention, a dozen people pop up to argue the inadequacies of?

      2 replies 0 retweets 11 likes
    3. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @mitsuhiko

      I guess I don’t feel that strongly about whether there should be fewer actors to trust or not. I do feel strongly that projects shouldn’t rewrite code just to avoid dependencies.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    4. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @graydon_pub @mitsuhiko

      For example, a *lot* of the reason software is so unfriendly to non-Latin language speakers is because people who speak those languages just homebrew their text handling instead of using libraries. This is manifestly unfair to most of the world.

      4 replies 1 retweet 7 likes
    5. James Widman‏ @JamesWidman 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @graydon_pub @mitsuhiko

      there is an important third category of options, which is to reproduce the desired functionality of a library. good text handling is important to users, so it is equally important that more programmers practice the implementation of good text-handling libraries (from scratch).

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @JamesWidman @graydon_pub @mitsuhiko

      With all due respect, this is implying that English speakers can write, say, Arabic text handling just as well as Arabic speakers can. Not only is this false, this sentiment has ugly cultural implications.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    7. Joe Groff‏ @jckarter 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @JamesWidman and

      Expecting everyone to contribute to one monolithic culture has its own problems. Would building a software ecosystem for Arabic speakers be easier if it didn't need to fit in Latin-centric infrastructure?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @jckarter @pcwalton and

      I think this is key to argument: _small_ deps are the concern, and the putative "harm done" by rewriting a dep (because you don't trust it or simply don't _like_ it -- deps are always a bit of an imperfect fit) is proportional to the dep's size. Big deps matter, but are accepted.

      1 reply 1 retweet 6 likes
    9. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @jckarter and

      I dunno. libsodium is a small dependency. But rewriting that puts users at risk.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    10. This Tweet is unavailable.
      Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @_moonstorms @sunshowers6 and

      Crypto is no less dangerous to rewrite if it’s 20 lines or 200.

      3:21 PM - 29 Jul 2019
      3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 29 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @pcwalton @sunshowers6 and

          Let me define "small" differently: a dependency you would feel little difficulty in rewriting yourself. Especially if picked up transitively, without even noticing it. The concern here is that people are underestimating the additional auth & audit risk when making that judgement.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        3. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @graydon_pub @sunshowers6 and

          I have the opposite concern. People *feel* little difficulty rewriting text shaping. Then they ship Latin-only apps. There are costs the other way too, and programmers frequently underestimate *those* costs.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        4. 7 more replies
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        2. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @_moonstorms @sunshowers6 and

          I’m not talking about writing a competitor to libsodium! People can feel free to do that. I’m talking about programmers writing home-brew implementations of crypto into their random apps because they don’t want to take dependencies.

          0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. DanielMicay‏ @DanielMicay 29 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @pcwalton @sunshowers6 and

          It can also be dangerous to reuse code that's poorly implemented or maintained. This is particularly true with cryptography. I often see libraries as a painful compromise because I know I could do a better job if I had the time to invest. Sometimes I can't make that compromise.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Joe Groff‏ @jckarter 29 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @DanielMicay @pcwalton and

          Yeah, the flip side of “never write your own ___” is when everyone ends up uncritically using a poor off the shelf implementation, whose flaws then end up getting revealed

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. 21 more replies
        1. Joshua Yanovski‏ @awesomeintheory 29 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @pcwalton @sunshowers6 and

          If verifying crypto is anything like every other formal verification effort, I suspect 200 lines of crypto are a lot more dangerous to rewrite than 20.

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
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