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pcwalton's profile
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
@pcwalton

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Patrick Walton

@pcwalton

Research engineer at Mozilla

San Francisco, CA
pcwalton.github.io
Joined November 2009

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    1. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @pcwalton @mitsuhiko

      Like of course mutable vs. immutable packaging is an issue, but it's minor. People are going to auto-accept minor-version updates to a dep anyway. The issue is people worry about growth in the set of providers of those updates, inability to know "who all the authors are".

      2 replies 0 retweets 12 likes
    2. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @mitsuhiko

      Do you know who all the authors are of the Windows kernel? I think people love to blame Cargo because they see a lot of “Compiling” lines every time they build and it’s scary. But they don’t realize that there are far more other, less visible, actors.

      2 replies 1 retweet 4 likes
    3. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @mitsuhiko

      No but see next qualifier: we _do_ believe (whether true or not) that there's some kind of checking / reviewing funnel on "authors of the windows kernel", both on hiring, ongoing management, and per-commit review by colleagues.

      2 replies 0 retweets 14 likes
    4. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @pcwalton @mitsuhiko

      Here is the thought experiment to do: is it currently easier -- seriously, think it over -- to adopt an abandoned dep and ship an exploit as a minor rev; or is it easier to get a job as a junior programmer at microsoft and smuggle an exploit past your senior engineer reviewer?

      4 replies 1 retweet 14 likes
    5. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @mitsuhiko

      You all are going to get every project rewriting the same code, over and over, for eternity, because you don’t want to delegate the work to the open source community.

      3 replies 1 retweet 1 like
    6. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @mitsuhiko

      I'm absolutely not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that the fact that almost no meaningful AAA system exists for distributed software development teams is an interesting and worthwhile problem to focus attention on.

      1 reply 0 retweets 10 likes
    7. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @pcwalton @mitsuhiko

      I mean, we have like N=47,362 incompatible chat protocols and easily exp(N) worth of JS frameworks and maybe _one_ serious attempt at thinking about distributed software update security (TUF) which every time I even mention, a dozen people pop up to argue the inadequacies of?

      2 replies 0 retweets 11 likes
    8. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @mitsuhiko

      I guess I don’t feel that strongly about whether there should be fewer actors to trust or not. I do feel strongly that projects shouldn’t rewrite code just to avoid dependencies.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
    9. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @graydon_pub @mitsuhiko

      For example, a *lot* of the reason software is so unfriendly to non-Latin language speakers is because people who speak those languages just homebrew their text handling instead of using libraries. This is manifestly unfair to most of the world.

      4 replies 1 retweet 7 likes
    10. James Widman‏ @JamesWidman 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @graydon_pub @mitsuhiko

      there is an important third category of options, which is to reproduce the desired functionality of a library. good text handling is important to users, so it is equally important that more programmers practice the implementation of good text-handling libraries (from scratch).

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
      Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @JamesWidman @graydon_pub @mitsuhiko

      With all due respect, this is implying that English speakers can write, say, Arabic text handling just as well as Arabic speakers can. Not only is this false, this sentiment has ugly cultural implications.

      12:26 PM - 29 Jul 2019
      • 3 Likes
      • серафими многоꙮчитїи Manish James Widman
      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Joe Groff‏ @jckarter 29 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @pcwalton @JamesWidman and

          Expecting everyone to contribute to one monolithic culture has its own problems. Would building a software ecosystem for Arabic speakers be easier if it didn't need to fit in Latin-centric infrastructure?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 29 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @jckarter @pcwalton and

          I think this is key to argument: _small_ deps are the concern, and the putative "harm done" by rewriting a dep (because you don't trust it or simply don't _like_ it -- deps are always a bit of an imperfect fit) is proportional to the dep's size. Big deps matter, but are accepted.

          1 reply 1 retweet 6 likes
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        2. James Widman‏ @JamesWidman 29 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @pcwalton @graydon_pub @mitsuhiko

          ok, that's an excellent point. so clearly, there is a need for collaboration and to study prior art, and that definitely increases the cost of making a new text-handling system from scratch. but that doesn't mean any coder should be dissuaded from getting into it.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. James Widman‏ @JamesWidman 29 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @JamesWidman @pcwalton and

          (It *does* mean that they should be dissuaded from *shipping* such a thing if it doesn't adequately serve users of different cultures.)

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        4. End of conversation

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