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pcwalton's profile
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
@pcwalton

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Patrick Walton

@pcwalton

Research engineer at Mozilla

San Francisco, CA
pcwalton.github.io
Joined November 2009

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    1. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 Jul 2019
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      When the left-pad debacle happened, I feared that people would conclude “dependencies are bad”. (Instead of the logical conclusion, which is “don’t allow dependencies to be deleted from package registries.”) That prediction turned out to be true. :(

      13 replies 19 retweets 91 likes
    2. Armin »not the flu« Ronacher‏Verified account @mitsuhiko 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton

      I still hate the high dependency count. It’s a nightmare. In rust as well as in javascript. I think dependency groups would help (grouped by org)

      5 replies 0 retweets 21 likes
    3. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @mitsuhiko

      Disagree.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    4. Armin »not the flu« Ronacher‏Verified account @mitsuhiko 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton

      How do you vet and security check them all? Any process one can put in place scales badly with the number of dependencies.

      2 replies 0 retweets 9 likes
    5. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @mitsuhiko

      How do you vet and security check all the OS libraries you depend on? I think people like to complain about Cargo, NPM, etc. because they make the complexity of software very visible, when the real issue is just that software is complex.

      7 replies 9 retweets 38 likes
    6. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @mitsuhiko

      I think this topic keeps getting derailed to software engineering stuff when it's really about authentication & authorization mechanisms, trust assumptions, porous dev communities. A false (but felt) small-trusted-community belief that "nobody is corrupting the stream" presently.

      1 reply 2 retweets 15 likes
    7. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @pcwalton @mitsuhiko

      Like of course mutable vs. immutable packaging is an issue, but it's minor. People are going to auto-accept minor-version updates to a dep anyway. The issue is people worry about growth in the set of providers of those updates, inability to know "who all the authors are".

      2 replies 0 retweets 12 likes
    8. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @mitsuhiko

      Do you know who all the authors are of the Windows kernel? I think people love to blame Cargo because they see a lot of “Compiling” lines every time they build and it’s scary. But they don’t realize that there are far more other, less visible, actors.

      2 replies 1 retweet 4 likes
    9. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @mitsuhiko

      No but see next qualifier: we _do_ believe (whether true or not) that there's some kind of checking / reviewing funnel on "authors of the windows kernel", both on hiring, ongoing management, and per-commit review by colleagues.

      2 replies 0 retweets 14 likes
    10. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @pcwalton @mitsuhiko

      Here is the thought experiment to do: is it currently easier -- seriously, think it over -- to adopt an abandoned dep and ship an exploit as a minor rev; or is it easier to get a job as a junior programmer at microsoft and smuggle an exploit past your senior engineer reviewer?

      4 replies 1 retweet 14 likes
      Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @mitsuhiko

      You all are going to get every project rewriting the same code, over and over, for eternity, because you don’t want to delegate the work to the open source community.

      10:07 AM - 29 Jul 2019
      • 1 Retweet
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      • Jonathan Cast
      3 replies 1 retweet 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 29 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @pcwalton @mitsuhiko

          I'm absolutely not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that the fact that almost no meaningful AAA system exists for distributed software development teams is an interesting and worthwhile problem to focus attention on.

          1 reply 0 retweets 10 likes
        3. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 29 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @graydon_pub @pcwalton @mitsuhiko

          I mean, we have like N=47,362 incompatible chat protocols and easily exp(N) worth of JS frameworks and maybe _one_ serious attempt at thinking about distributed software update security (TUF) which every time I even mention, a dozen people pop up to argue the inadequacies of?

          2 replies 0 retweets 11 likes
        4. 10 more replies
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        2. Armin »not the flu« Ronacher‏Verified account @mitsuhiko 29 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @pcwalton @graydon_pub

          I *am* using open source code. We use a lot in Python. But I much rather pull in disgusting boost in C++ than thousands of one liner js libraries because it’s less risky.

          1 reply 1 retweet 9 likes
        3. Luca Barbato‏ @lu_zero_ 29 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @mitsuhiko @pcwalton @graydon_pub

          Why it is less risky? npm isn't exactly great in warranting that the packages could not be maliciously took over, but having something broken in boost is not that strange given how big it. (and I could dig a list of how many times we had problems with libstdc++ itself)

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation
        1. New conversation
        2. BrendanEich‏Verified account @BrendanEich 29 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @pcwalton @graydon_pub @mitsuhiko

          There's a tradeoff. I agree with much of https://www.davidhaney.io/npm-left-pad-have-we-forgotten-how-to-program/ …. The parody of Unix philosophy that turned into "module must be one function that does only one thing" played a part in the left-pad debacle. Open source communities IMO do not require excessive deps on micro-pkgs.

          1 reply 1 retweet 1 like
        3. Michael Haufe‏ @mlhaufe 29 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @BrendanEich @pcwalton and

          How do we get to a capability model? Enforcing parameterized modules seems a bridge too far.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. 1 more reply

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