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pcwalton's profile
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
@pcwalton

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Patrick Walton

@pcwalton

Research engineer at Mozilla

San Francisco, CA
pcwalton.github.io
Joined November 2009

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    1. elucent‏ @elucentdev 8 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @fu5ha @pcwalton @KirinDave

      1) I'd argue familiarity does matter - Rust aims to replace C, targets C programmers, but is slow to learn from C due to its complexity 2) While a clear step up from C, the benefits you list have been done in other languages without nearly as much token bloat - e.g. Scala/Kotlin

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. ⏐ Τhе Αnⅽⅰеnt Вооеr ⏐‏ @KirinDave 8 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @elucentdev @fu5ha @pcwalton

      Are we implying Rust has more "token bloat" than Scala? That's... Not right.

      2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
    3. elucent‏ @elucentdev 8 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @KirinDave @fu5ha @pcwalton

      I wouldn't say it has less. I'm not sure how Rust justifies things like "&'a" as intuitive, and macro syntax is a nightmare. These aren't the most common cases, but neither are a lot of the obscure operators and tokens in Scala.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    4. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 8 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @elucentdev @KirinDave @fu5ha

      What other syntax would you prefer for lifetimes and macros?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    5. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 8 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @elucentdev and

      Keep in mind lifetimes and macros are concepts don’t exist in most languages (and no, they couldn’t be left out of the language without either adding GC or compromising memory safety).

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    6. elucent‏ @elucentdev 8 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @KirinDave @fu5ha

      Which is a good point, and I don't have a magic solution off the top of my head. But I also don't think that means it is somehow impossible to improve on, or that it isn't a problem.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 8 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @elucentdev @KirinDave @fu5ha

      I don’t see any way to do memory safety without GC without any adding new concepts. I think we need to accept that sometimes people have to learn new concepts. The alternative is restricting ourselves to language design from the ‘80s for no reason other than nostalgia.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    8. elucent‏ @elucentdev 8 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @KirinDave @fu5ha

      Let me clarify: not at all opposed to new concepts, my single issue with Rust is that all these amazing new concepts are a bit hidden/obfuscated by all of these weird syntactic elements. Accessibility is especially important when a lang brings all these cool ideas to the table!

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 8 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @elucentdev @KirinDave @fu5ha

      Lifetime and macro syntax were agonizingly debated, with hundreds of messages each. The community ended up preferring the current syntaxes. This is why I take issue with the idea that Rust users don’t care about readability. Async/await syntax debates went to 1000s of messages…

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    10. elucent‏ @elucentdev 8 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @KirinDave @fu5ha

      ...do you have a link/is that discussion public? That actually sounds like an interesting read. And yeah, I don't mean to imply that Rust isn't the result of a lot of careful decisions. But I do still think syntax is an unfortunate weak point of the language.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 8 Jul 2019
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      Replying to @elucentdev @KirinDave @fu5ha

      Lifetime syntax debate: https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/134 … There’s a macro one too but I can’t find it offhand.

      3:11 PM - 8 Jul 2019
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      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. elucent‏ @elucentdev 8 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @pcwalton @KirinDave @fu5ha

          Thanks! I'll give it a read, some interesting proposals in there. And thanks for the Twitter discussion as well. :)

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 8 Jul 2019
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          Replying to @elucentdev @KirinDave @fu5ha

          No problem!

          0 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. End of conversation

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