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pcwalton's profile
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
@pcwalton

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Patrick Walton

@pcwalton

Research engineer at Mozilla

San Francisco, CA
pcwalton.github.io
Joined November 2009

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    1. Joshua Yanovski‏ @awesomeintheory 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @samth @johnregehr and

      Well, sure, but we are actually trying to prove things :)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Joshua Yanovski‏ @awesomeintheory 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @awesomeintheory @samth and

      And, I think the fact that there *is* a semantic model that seems (1) to mostly correspond to Rust's type system, (2) be formalizable in Coq, (3) be strong enough to show that a bunch of existing unsafe code is correct, is a pretty major advance in the state of the art.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    3. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @awesomeintheory @johnregehr and

      Right, _you_ are trying to prove things. I think the novelty and ambition of the RustBelt work is quite clear, and I would be surprised if anything like that had the same difficulties getting accepted that papers on the design of Rust had.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Joshua Yanovski‏ @awesomeintheory 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @samth @johnregehr and

      That's fair, but a lot of what we're doing is just translating over concepts that are already baked into the language design. A lot of these specs wouldn't be type-able in other general purpose languages. So I don't think you can cleanly separate RustBelt from the design of Rust.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @awesomeintheory @johnregehr and

      That's true, but I also think it answers neither the question "why does rust work when cyclone etc don't" nor "why was a design paper on rust hard to publish".

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @samth @awesomeintheory and

      My sense is that academia thought substructural type systems were a dead end at the time, and it was going to be very hard to get anything about them published no matter what. It’s just the sense I had though; could be wrong.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @samth and

      I think academics may have a tendency to think that if ideas don’t catch on in practice that it’s because they’re inherently flawed. But in many (most?) cases failure to achieve industry success is due to poor execution or just bad luck, not because of the ideas.

      6 replies 4 retweets 18 likes
    8. John Regehr‏ @johnregehr 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @samth and

      I don't agree with the first part of this take-- academics can create whole communities, running for decades, with very little adoption in practice of the ideas

      3 replies 0 retweets 12 likes
    9. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @johnregehr @samth and

      Yeah, maybe it more has to do with having a champion in the field. Substructural type systems didn’t seem to have many champions in academia when Rust came on the scene.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. John Regehr‏ @johnregehr 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @samth and

      which means you faced this uphill battle, which sucks. but once this energy barrier is overcome, subsequent papers have a much easier time.

      2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
      Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @johnregehr @samth and

      Which ironically was easier to do outside academia—building industry adoption basically forced academics to take it seriously. BTW I’m aiming to do the same with Pathfinder—the graphics community has a bias against 2D and incorrectly considers it a solved problem. Same dynamic.

      9:36 AM - 29 May 2019
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      • Brendan Zabarauskas Akhil Indurti every hero is a policy failure John Regehr
      3 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
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        2. Rik Arends‏ @rikarends 29 May 2019
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          Replying to @pcwalton @johnregehr and

          I have a basic bias against people calling things 'solved problems'. Until things are simple, easy, easy to compile, reuse, fast, work everywhere, they aren't solved. And we need reimplementations/reimaginings to fix it.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Rik Arends‏ @rikarends 29 May 2019
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          Replying to @rikarends @pcwalton and

          Just like Rust reimagined C++, vector graphics, HTML, UI, all is up for reimagining if we can decomplect, outperform, and just plain make things more rapidly workable.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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        2. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth 29 May 2019
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          Replying to @pcwalton @johnregehr and

          This goes back to the issue about evaluation. Rust is great because it's safe, low-level, and people actually can produce real software in it. But how do you evaluate that third part before it gets adoption? It's a hard problem.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        3. John Regehr‏ @johnregehr 29 May 2019
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          Replying to @samth @pcwalton and

          it's not hard, you keep an open mind and don't buy into gatekeeping bullshit like reviewers at top conferences often do

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
        4. 5 more replies
        1. John Regehr‏ @johnregehr 29 May 2019
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          Replying to @pcwalton @samth and

          and you can find much larger, more systemic examples of this. in psychology the Skinner mob, string theorists in physics, the non-probabilistic AI folks, etc.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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