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pcwalton's profile
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
@pcwalton

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Patrick Walton

@pcwalton

Research engineer at Mozilla

San Francisco, CA
pcwalton.github.io
Joined November 2009

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    1. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @awesomeintheory @johnregehr and

      I think the big innovations in Rust are borrowing and the integration with unsafe. It's precisely the approach to unsafe that's crucial and also less ambitious than a system trying to do everything in safe code.

      2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
    2. Joshua Yanovski‏ @awesomeintheory 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @samth @johnregehr and

      Less ambitious in one sense, since it allows you to use the full power of higher order separation logic (which no one is trying to claim is a usable general purpose programming language) in proving the unsafe specs. But it also means a more complicated semantic typing model.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @awesomeintheory @johnregehr and

      I don't think it's right to say that Rust itself features higher-order separation logic, in the same way that the ML module system doesn't actually have translucent sums. The less ambitious part is that you just write `unsafe` and don't prove anything!

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Joshua Yanovski‏ @awesomeintheory 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @samth @johnregehr and

      Well, sure, but we are actually trying to prove things :)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Joshua Yanovski‏ @awesomeintheory 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @awesomeintheory @samth and

      And, I think the fact that there *is* a semantic model that seems (1) to mostly correspond to Rust's type system, (2) be formalizable in Coq, (3) be strong enough to show that a bunch of existing unsafe code is correct, is a pretty major advance in the state of the art.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    6. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @awesomeintheory @johnregehr and

      Right, _you_ are trying to prove things. I think the novelty and ambition of the RustBelt work is quite clear, and I would be surprised if anything like that had the same difficulties getting accepted that papers on the design of Rust had.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Joshua Yanovski‏ @awesomeintheory 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @samth @johnregehr and

      That's fair, but a lot of what we're doing is just translating over concepts that are already baked into the language design. A lot of these specs wouldn't be type-able in other general purpose languages. So I don't think you can cleanly separate RustBelt from the design of Rust.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Sam Tobin-Hochstadt‏ @samth 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @awesomeintheory @johnregehr and

      That's true, but I also think it answers neither the question "why does rust work when cyclone etc don't" nor "why was a design paper on rust hard to publish".

      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @samth @awesomeintheory and

      My sense is that academia thought substructural type systems were a dead end at the time, and it was going to be very hard to get anything about them published no matter what. It’s just the sense I had though; could be wrong.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @samth and

      I think academics may have a tendency to think that if ideas don’t catch on in practice that it’s because they’re inherently flawed. But in many (most?) cases failure to achieve industry success is due to poor execution or just bad luck, not because of the ideas.

      6 replies 4 retweets 18 likes
      Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 29 May 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @samth and

      The one decent review we got for the Rust paper basically said “well, substructural type systems are a failed idea, but people seem to be actually writing a lot of code in this language, so this is intriguing”

      9:32 AM - 29 May 2019
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      • corvus frugilegus Brendan Zabarauskas doleful moo of a cow, έαυτὸντιμωρούμενος Sebastian Gift asta davidad 🎇
      0 replies 0 retweets 7 likes

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