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pcwalton's profile
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
@pcwalton

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Patrick Walton

@pcwalton

Research engineer at Mozilla

San Francisco, CA
pcwalton.github.io
Joined November 2009

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    1. JF Bastien‏ @jfbastien 9 Jan 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @Gok @fugueish

      A spec is all PNaCl needed? It wasn’t a *formal* spec, but it had one. It could have been made extremely good. I doubt they would have sufficed. NaCl had a pretty simple spec too: the validator was *trivial*. I don’t think a spec is sufficient.

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    2. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 9 Jan 2019
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      Replying to @jfbastien @Gok @fugueish

      Well, there are other issues at play too. Roughly: (1) is the existing tech spec’d? (2) does the existing tech meet the needs of the Web? NaCl/PNaCl meets (1) (though NaCl for x86 means importing x86 semantics so arguably not (1)) but not (2). SPIR-V meets both…

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    3. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 9 Jan 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @jfbastien and

      With the caveat there are some issues around UB (IIRC) that will need to be addressed in SPIR-V to make a Web-SPIR-V. If they can’t be addressed then we might need something new.

      3 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. JF Bastien‏ @jfbastien 9 Jan 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @Gok @fugueish

      Right I’m not sure it meets (2). Have you talked to @Litherum and @filpizlo about their proposal?

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    5. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 9 Jan 2019
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      Replying to @jfbastien @Gok and

      jgilbert and kvark on our side have thought about this a lot more deeply than I have and I’ll defer to them :)

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Filip Jerzy Pizło‏ @filpizlo 9 Jan 2019
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      Replying to @pcwalton @jfbastien and

      To expand - the point is that SPIR-V doesn’t really have a spec. It has words on pages that say things, but specs have pseudo algorithms that tell you unambiguously what the possible executions look like, and SPIR-V lacks that particular detail.

      3 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
    7. Josh Groves‏ @grovesNL 9 Jan 2019
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      Replying to @filpizlo @pcwalton and

      Why not clarify the environment for the web then (exactly what Google is doing)? Similarly Metal appears underspecified too (at least from public docs), yet it will be used as a backend

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    8. Myles C. Maxfield‏ @Litherum 9 Jan 2019
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      Replying to @grovesNL @filpizlo and

      Metal Shading Language is not being proposed as a web standard

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Josh Groves‏ @grovesNL 9 Jan 2019
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      Replying to @Litherum @filpizlo and

      Of course, I'm simply pointing out that UB in implementations should also receive some level of attention and ideally be clarified – just like Google is doing with SPIR-V

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. JF Bastien‏ @jfbastien 10 Jan 2019
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      Replying to @grovesNL @Litherum and

      It certainly should remove UB. However, PNaCl did the same removal of UB, with a handwavy spec, and this helped it ~zero in how it was perceived. I'm asking why SPIR-V is any different, and what can be learned from WebAssembly's success.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 10 Jan 2019
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      Replying to @jfbastien @grovesNL and

      I think a difference is that a design goal of SPIR-V was for it to be a distribution format for shaders for native apps, while LLVM IR was designed as an internal compiler IR.

      9:49 AM - 10 Jan 2019
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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        2. JF Bastien‏ @jfbastien 10 Jan 2019
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          Replying to @pcwalton @grovesNL and

          That’s unrelated to PNaCl though, since it had its own IR (sure, derived from llvm, but different in substantial ways).

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 10 Jan 2019
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          Replying to @jfbastien @grovesNL and

          Well, “derived from LLVM” is the relevant part. If it had its own IR, and used the Web APIs over Pepper, it would be a different story. (It’d be wasm, basically) :) TBH, I think Pepper was the larger concern.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
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