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pcwalton's profile
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
@pcwalton

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Patrick Walton

@pcwalton

Research engineer at Mozilla

San Francisco, CA
pcwalton.github.io
Joined November 2009

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    Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton Oct 27

    Hot take: The increasing tendency of C compilers to aggressively exploit undefined behavior has been bad for security, but not for the reason you'd think. It's bad because it means C keeps getting faster, so people keep writing C code.

    1:31 PM - 27 Oct 2018
    • 73 Retweets
    • 393 Likes
    • Raphael Amiard acid burn 👩🏽‍💻 Vaibhav Sagar Joe Kachmar 🏳️‍🌈 Brian Hurt Vojtěch Sajdl Erika Jesper Agdakx Jens Ayton
    10 replies 73 retweets 393 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. Bigo‏ @bigopon_777 Oct 27
        Replying to @pcwalton

        > It's bad because it means C keeps getting faster, so people keep writing C code. May I know why? Isn't compilation already at most optimal point?

        1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      3. Jon Roelofs‏ @jon_roelofs Oct 27
        Replying to @bigopon_777 @pcwalton

        that would imply they’ve solved P=NP. compilers are always going to have room for improvement

        2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
      4. Gerard Thornley‏ @GerardThornley Oct 28
        Replying to @jon_roelofs @bigopon_777 @pcwalton

        And processors are a moving target.

        0 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
      5. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Philippa Cowderoy‏ @flippacpub Oct 27
        Replying to @pcwalton @ireneista

        Watch how fast those demons stream from your nose!

        1 reply 1 retweet 6 likes
      3. Philippa Cowderoy‏ @flippacpub Oct 27
        Replying to @flippacpub @pcwalton @ireneista

        You'd summon demons too, if it happened to you...

        0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      4. End of conversation
      1. José Manuel‏ @josemanuelp2 Oct 28
        Replying to @pcwalton @mapastr

        Just use #rustlang

        0 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
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      1. New conversation
      2. nopninja‏ @Nopninja Oct 27
        Replying to @pcwalton @dakami

        Is your argument c=bad? I don’t get it

        1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      3. Logan Bowers‏ @loganb Oct 28
        Replying to @Nopninja @pcwalton @dakami

        Yes.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      4. nopninja‏ @Nopninja Oct 28
        Replying to @loganb @pcwalton @dakami

        Profoundly silly

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. Logan Bowers‏ @loganb Oct 28
        Replying to @Nopninja @pcwalton @dakami

        There are a great many objectives for which it is not.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      6. Dan Kaminsky‏Verified account @dakami Oct 28
        Replying to @loganb @Nopninja @pcwalton

        And a great many where its only alternatives are C++ and Rust, and where the latter is infeasible due to build time breakage (among other issues).

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      7. Logan Bowers‏ @loganb Oct 28
        Replying to @dakami @Nopninja @pcwalton

        Things can be simultaneously bad and necessary. Or, they can be bad and also the best-available.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      8. Dan Kaminsky‏Verified account @dakami Oct 28
        Replying to @loganb @Nopninja @pcwalton

        I have to scrub rust from one of my projects absolutely everywhere it shows up because its presence makes compile times take a day instead of minutes. My use is odd but it ain’t that odd. It’s the stuff of getting your tech banned, a new way to break the build.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      9. Dan Kaminsky‏Verified account @dakami Oct 28
        Replying to @dakami @loganb and

        “Compiling successfully, someday” turns out to not be good enough.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      10. 5 more replies
      1. Thom Chiovoloni‏ @thomcsc Oct 27
        Replying to @pcwalton

        Eh, a lot of these optimizations end up helping Rust too.

        0 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
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      1. David Weiseth‏ @dtweiseth Oct 28
        Replying to @pcwalton

        If ever there was a job for AI as it exists today, it’s writing the compiler for a specific chip

        0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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      1. New conversation
      2. Bit Rot Farmer‏ @bitrotfarmer Oct 27
        Replying to @pcwalton @dakami

        are there actually people starting new C projects outside of niche / embedded / legacy situations? I'm really interested in how this has a larger impact than silently and suddenly breaking the security of decades old code bases.

        2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      3. Dan Kaminsky‏Verified account @dakami Oct 27
        Replying to @bitrotfarmer @pcwalton

        Yes, quite a few. Remember there's only a few languages you can write self-contained libraries in, that can be consumed elsewhere.

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      4. Bit Rot Farmer‏ @bitrotfarmer Oct 27
        Replying to @dakami @pcwalton

        good point. Portable and easy to integrate libraries are a thing here. But of those probably only a tiny fraction is affected by the execution speed argument in favor of C, and most would prefer safe handling of UB?

        1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      5. 2 more replies

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