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pcwalton's profile
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
Patrick Walton
@pcwalton

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Patrick Walton

@pcwalton

Research engineer at Mozilla

San Francisco, CA
pcwalton.github.io
Joined November 2009

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    1. Brendan Zabarauskas‏ @brendanzab 14 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @jntrnr @pigworker

      I mean, create a new language, but you don't really need to push the dependent type agenda up front - just say you have an 'expressive type system'. You already have motivating examples because they're in the libraries and example applications. Can expand on the theory later.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    2. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 14 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @brendanzab @jntrnr @pigworker

      I think if you have them, the machinery is going to be pretty visible and you might as well own it / advertise it. They’re immensely powerful! Like time-lord, Jean Grey, space-folding over-9000 powerful. Just … not without costs, maybe overkill for that todo-list app.

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    3. Jonathan Turner‏ @jntrnr 14 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @brendanzab @pigworker

      It depends on the approach, I suspect. Even Jean Grey wasn't always Phoenix, to use your metaphor. Looking at ways to bend the curve towards usability may be a way to incorporate dependent types without requiring a large upfront time investment by the library consumers.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    4. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 14 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @jntrnr @brendanzab @pigworker

      It’s not the usability that concerns me; that’s interesting and ongoing work. I’m concerned that the entire task they’re useful for (of stating, much less proving fine-gained invariants) isn’t sufficiently appealing/motivated for mainstream programming problems.

      3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    5. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 14 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @jntrnr and

      I mean maybe if there’s a sea change in the legal environment and we can no longer get away with shipping code as we do? It’s always conceivable. But it’d be a different world. Most programs written today have only very weak associated meanings of correctness.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    6. Jonathan Turner‏ @jntrnr 14 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @brendanzab @pigworker

      This is a different topic. While it maybe useful to try to imagine that future, your thesis that DT is very powerful is a good kicking off point. From there, showing what that power can do, with a framework that's usable, you wouldn't need a sea change to attract users.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 14 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @jntrnr @brendanzab @pigworker

      My point is that the "what's possible" part covers principally activities that most users don't want to do: express and prove complex system invariants. It's not at all clear what those are for most programs, and the effort to define them gets you nowhere closer to "shipping".

      1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
    8. Graydon Hoare‏ @graydon_pub 14 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @jntrnr and

      It would, IOW, take a major shift to the economic priorities of people working in software. Maybe that might happen (I'd love it if it did) but I'm not seeing much sign of it yet.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    9. Jonathan Turner‏ @jntrnr 14 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @graydon_pub @brendanzab @pigworker

      Jonathan Turner Retweeted Patrick Walton

      Sounds like @pcwalton is thinking along similar lines (https://twitter.com/pcwalton/status/1029587679732588544 …) All said, this doesn't seem to help @pigworker with his original question. Instead, it seems to redouble the "worthless" feeling he mentions. Are there creative solutions here to show the value?

      Jonathan Turner added,

      Patrick Walton @pcwalton
      Replying to @jntrnr @brendanzab and 2 others
      It’s mostly an economic problem, IMO. Most software can’t afford to spend developer time/expertise on proving correctness. The software that *can* afford it tends to be core infrastructure, because it’s widely depended on.
      2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 14 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @jntrnr @graydon_pub and

      Well, to the original question, I’d answer: Focus on the niche of widely-used, core infrastructure code where the cost of a bug is really high. Ignore Web apps and so forth (for now, anyway). Prove your filesystem driver correct, or your malloc implementation, etc.

      2 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
      Patrick Walton‏ @pcwalton 14 Aug 2018
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      Replying to @pcwalton @jntrnr and

      Prove a JIT and a garbage collector correct (and make them acceptably fast) and you’ll have browser vendors beating down your door :)

      9:51 PM - 14 Aug 2018 from Dogpatch, San Francisco
      • 1 Retweet
      • 9 Likes
      • Jed Davis 🏳️‍🌈 Joshua Yanovski fire elemental eddyb, thriving in isolation, Ethan Smith Gordon Brander Sean Gillespie Greg Jandl
      1 reply 1 retweet 9 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. qualia are a fuck‏ @__anp__ 14 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @pcwalton @jntrnr and

          I've had a ( impossible?) dream for a while of a DTish subset of rust which isn't exposed in inter-crate APIs which allows the edges of a crate to validate inputs at runtime against a contract which allows safe indexing, dispatch, etc without runtime checks deeper in the crate

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. qualia are a fuck‏ @__anp__ 14 Aug 2018
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          Replying to @__anp__ @pcwalton and

          something something typestate? idk how related that was, I came around long after it. I don't have a clue to what extent this idea is possible, but I've had several occasions where I would have reached for it if it existed

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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