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ofnumbers's profile
Tim Swanson
Tim Swanson
Tim Swanson
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@ofnumbers

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Tim SwansonVerified account

@ofnumbers

founder @PostOakLabs; advisor @clearmatics @blockseer @elmnyc; formerly @inside_r3; former fellow @suss_sg & @skbi_smu; and author of a few things

San Francisco
ofnumbers.com
Joined March 2012

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    Tim Swanson‏Verified account @ofnumbers Aug 23

    Tim Swanson Retweeted Tim Swanson

    someone asked for me to explain the math, so here is a short thread detailing a simple model using publicly known numbers: the current Bitcoin network hashrate is around 50 exahashes/sec the most common mining hardware is still the S9 antminer which churns out ~13 terahashes/sechttps://twitter.com/ofnumbers/status/1032350035701161984 …

    Tim Swanson added,

    Tim SwansonVerified account @ofnumbers
    Can't simultaneously say that Bitcoin is - as measured by hashrate - the "most secure public chain" and in the same breath say the miners don't consume enormous quantities of energy. The fundamental problem with PoW maximalism is that it wants to have a free energy lunch. https://twitter.com/danheld/status/1032322008854421504 …
    Show this thread
    8:51 PM - 23 Aug 2018
    • 153 Retweets
    • 391 Likes
    • ☭☭☭☭☭☭ Dan Saccardi LondonFintechPodcast Mike Luis Cárdenas Graide Howell megan 🌿 Mirador TomWithTheWeather
    30 replies 153 retweets 391 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. Tim Swanson‏Verified account @ofnumbers Aug 23

        thus the hashrate pointed at the Bitcoin network today is about 50,000,000 terashashes this is the equivalent of 3,846,000 S9s... yes over 3 million S9s. while there is other hardware including some newer, slightly more energy efficient gear online, the S9 is a good approximate

        1 reply 11 retweets 40 likes
        Show this thread
      3. Tim Swanson‏Verified account @ofnumbers Aug 23

        because the vast majority of these machines are left on 24/7, the math to estimate how much energy consumption is as follows: in practice, the S9 draws about 1,500 watts. so 1,500 x 24 = 36kWh per machine per day. here's a good thread explaining this:https://www.quora.com/How-much-electricity-kWh-does-an-Antminer-S9-consume-in-a-day …

        3 replies 17 retweets 53 likes
        Show this thread
      4. Tim Swanson‏Verified account @ofnumbers Aug 23

        in a single month, one S9 will use ~1,080 kWh. thus if you multiple that by 3,846,000 machines, you reach a number that is the equivalent of an entire country. for a single day the math is: ~138.4 million kWh / day annually that is: ~50.5 billion kWh / year

        8 replies 21 retweets 69 likes
        Show this thread
      5. Tim Swanson‏Verified account @ofnumbers Aug 23

        for perspective, ~50.5 billion kWh / year would place the Bitcoin network at around the 47th largest on the list of countries by electricity consumption, right between Algeria and Greece: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_consumption …

        3 replies 32 retweets 88 likes
        Show this thread
      6. Tim Swanson‏Verified account @ofnumbers Aug 23

        but, this estimate is probably a lower-bound because it doesn't include the electricity consumed within the data centers to cool the systems, nor does it include the relatively older ASIC equipment that is still turned on because of local subsidies a farm might receive. so what?

        1 reply 9 retweets 73 likes
        Show this thread
      7. Tim Swanson‏Verified account @ofnumbers Aug 23

        recent analysis from a researcher at @PwC places the Bitcoin network electricity consumption higher, at more than the level of Austria which is number 39th on that list above:https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/mining-for-bitcoin-uses-more-energy-than-austria-says-pwcs-alex-de-vries-thnvjq55b …

        2 replies 41 retweets 75 likes
        Show this thread
      8. Tim Swanson‏Verified account @ofnumbers Aug 23

        or to look at it in a different perspective: the Bitcoin network is consuming the same level of electricity of a developed country - Austria - a country that generates ~$415 billion per year in economic activity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) …

        8 replies 69 retweets 116 likes
        Show this thread
      9. Tim Swanson‏Verified account @ofnumbers Aug 23

        based on a recent analysis from Chainalysis, it found that Bitcoin - which is just one of many PoW coins - handled about $70 million in payments processed for the month of June:https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-01/bitcoin-s-use-in-commerce-keeps-falling-even-as-volatility-eases …

        8 replies 21 retweets 81 likes
        Show this thread
      10. Tim Swanson‏Verified account @ofnumbers Aug 23

        you don't have to be a hippy tree hugger (i'm not) to clearly see that an proof-of-work blockchains (such as Bitcoin and its derivatives) are currently consuming significantly more resources than they create. yet this math is hand-waved away on a regular basis by coin lobbyists.

        17 replies 85 retweets 241 likes
        Show this thread
      11. Tim Swanson‏Verified account @ofnumbers Aug 23

        reporters, if you plan to write future stories on this topic, always begin by looking at the network hashrate of the specific PoW coin you are looking at and dividing it by the most common piece of mining hardware. these numbers are public and cannot be easily dismissed.

        13 replies 25 retweets 146 likes
        Show this thread
      12. Tim Swanson‏Verified account @ofnumbers Aug 25

        coda: more than a few people have asked for similar math for other PoW coins, so i put together a new post using the same methodology. this looks at Bitcoin Cash (BCH), Ethereum (ETH), and Litecoin (LTC):https://www.ofnumbers.com/2018/08/26/how-much-electricity-is-consumed-by-bitcoin-bitcoin-cash-ethereum-litecoin-and-monero/ …

        2 replies 11 retweets 24 likes
        Show this thread
      13. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. Will Piers  ⚡‏ @willpiers Aug 23
        Replying to @ofnumbers @YangVentures

        Right.. but what if you're using a renewable energy source that couldn't have been used for something better anyway? Then it is essentially extra security to the network "for free"

        8 replies 1 retweet 5 likes
      3. Tim Swanson‏Verified account @ofnumbers Aug 23
        Replying to @willpiers @YangVentures

        (1) that assumes that all PoW miners will gravitate towards renewable resources and there isn't much evidence that his occurring (yet) (2) the scenario above still doesn't factor in the tremendous e-waste generated from millions of single-use ASIC systems with ~12 month lifecycle

        6 replies 1 retweet 48 likes
      4. Angus C de Crespigny‏ @YangVentures Aug 23
        Replying to @ofnumbers @willpiers

        PoW miners & mining hw makers are heavily incented to get cheap electricity & improve efficiencies. Both pot farms & Google/Amazon/Facebook found ways to be much more energy efficient. Nothing promotes energy conservation & efficiency like high prices & huge usage.pic.twitter.com/W0aLo0zfFT

        https://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2018/01/16/bitcoin-mining-uses-as-much-power-as-ireland-and-why-thats-not-a-problem/#4612d54c4589
        https://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2018/01/16/bitcoin-mining-uses-as-much-power-as-ireland-and-why-thats-not-a-problem/#4612d54c4589
        5 replies 1 retweet 6 likes
      5. Tim Swanson‏Verified account @ofnumbers Aug 23
        Replying to @YangVentures @willpiers

        that's a rosy sounding but unproven assertion and it assumes that PoW miners behave the same way as the Google's of the world. but we know this isn't true from hardware depreciation alone: ASIC equipment for PoW coins lasts ~12 months whereas Google et al want to squeeze years.

        3 replies 0 retweets 28 likes
      6. Angus C de Crespigny‏ @YangVentures Aug 23
        Replying to @ofnumbers @willpiers

        I'm just saying any company (be it F2Pool, Google, or a pot famr) that uses a lot of electricity and has massive electric bills is going to find ways to cut the cost. The best miners will buy the best rigs, keep their mining hw cool & invest in energy efficiency.

        1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
      7. Tim Swanson‏Verified account @ofnumbers Aug 23
        Replying to @YangVentures @willpiers

        sure, i get your point, but we're not really covering any new ground on this thread. a few of us discussed this ~4 years ago, what that endgame could look like. mining operations could likely remain oligarchic / centralized due to reasons discussed here: http://www.ofnumbers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Bitcoins-Made-in-China.pdf …

        2 replies 0 retweets 16 likes
      8. Angus C de Crespigny‏ @YangVentures Aug 23
        Replying to @ofnumbers @willpiers

        Yes, I supported Luke Dash Jr & Cobra to change PoW w/ consensus because we think BITMAIN is a monopoly & can attack Bitcoin. No one listened so I invested in BITMAIN (though I may ask for my money back after the lies either BITMAIN told or their constructive or actual agent).

        2 replies 0 retweets 3 likes
      9. Tim Swanson‏Verified account @ofnumbers Aug 23
        Replying to @YangVentures @willpiers

        but that doesn't help anything beyond the egos of a couple loud developers on twitter. if it is profitable to build purpose-built ASICs, in practice, it is likely that only a handful of teams will be able to execute and do so. see this article for more:https://blog.sia.tech/the-state-of-cryptocurrency-mining-538004a37f9b …

        1 reply 0 retweets 16 likes
      10. 5 more replies
      1. New conversation
      2. Arulp‏ @Prak_ap Aug 23
        Replying to @ofnumbers

        This would have been a good comparison if you included cost to run a fiat system. Including transportation, people, technology costs.

        4 replies 0 retweets 1 like
      3. Tim Swanson‏Verified account @ofnumbers Aug 23
        Replying to @Prak_ap

        the exercise was to show the electricity costs of just one PoW coin. it didn't include the e-waste generated from the single use ASIC machines that are useful for about ~12 months or the labor costs, or building rents, or transportation, etc.

        2 replies 0 retweets 14 likes
      4. Arulp‏ @Prak_ap Aug 23
        Replying to @ofnumbers

        Completely agree to your point, but the analysis is in comparison to existing lsystem, hence evaluation of existing system is required to form a pov.

        3 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
      5. Tim Swanson‏Verified account @ofnumbers Aug 23
        Replying to @Prak_ap

        you mean regarding Austria? we know how much electricity the entire country uses and how much economic activity it creates with that electricity... i linked to it above. same with all other countries, it's not an unknown figure : /

        1 reply 0 retweets 30 likes
      6. 1 more reply

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