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o_guest's profile
Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ
Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ
Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ
@o_guest

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Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ

@o_guest

• goth gremlin • computational cognitive/neuroscience modeling • geek & techish Cypriot • plant aficionada • came up with #bropenscience • http://neuroplausible.com  •

Τότεναμ, Λονδίνο & Cyprus
olivia.science
Joined October 2015

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    1. Danielle Navarro‏ @djnavarro Jun 28
      • Report Tweet

      Okay, this is a genuine question, because I'm puzzled. Why is it that every time someone makes a structural critique about underrepresentation of minorities in X it is always met with a "this is offensive to the minorities that are already in X" reply?

      2 replies 5 retweets 14 likes
      Show this thread
    2. Danielle Navarro‏ @djnavarro Jun 28
      • Report Tweet

      If the claim were "literally every person in field X is a straight white cisgender American man" then I could see how that's offensive to all of us in field X that aren't. But that's *never* the claim being made, is it? The point is just that white men are overrepresented?

      1 reply 1 retweet 9 likes
      Show this thread
    3. Danielle Navarro‏ @djnavarro Jun 28
      • Report Tweet

      I don't get it. There's not a lot of trans women in cognitive science, but I don't feel *erased* by people criticising cogsci for its lack of diversity. I guess I don't understand why this pattern keeps recurring.

      2 replies 1 retweet 18 likes
      Show this thread
    4. Ivy Onyeador‏ @Ivuoma Jun 28
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @djnavarro

      I presume the underrepresented people aren't really making that argument. Either way, it's derailing pure and simple. I would try to redirect back to the underrepresentation and solutions for it (if it's some kind of discussion about solutions).

      1 reply 1 retweet 5 likes
    5. Samer Sabri‏ @seriousssam Jun 28
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      Replying to @Ivuoma @djnavarro

      Agree RE derailing. Only valid critique I see here is that representation is just one step. Cultural broadening and change is good too, and sometimes we miss out on that bcz of a kind of diversity for diversity's sake.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
    6. Danielle Navarro‏ @djnavarro Jun 28
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      Replying to @seriousssam @Ivuoma

      I think what puzzles me most is when that argument comes from someone who actually does belong to an underrepresented group?

      2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
    7. Ivy Onyeador‏ @Ivuoma Jun 28
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @djnavarro @seriousssam

      Yeah that's weird. Then I would probe because it feels like theres some other underlying issue, which is still separate, but still shouldnt detail a discussion about underrepresentation

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    8. Danielle Navarro‏ @djnavarro Jun 28
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      Replying to @Ivuoma @seriousssam

      It's odd. Maybe it's something like this: structural critique often entails saying "group norm X is disproportionately harmful to URMs". But URM folks who succeed in the group have to adhere to group norm X too. So they see the critique of the *norm* as a personal attack? Maybe?

      2 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
    9. Iris van Rooij‏ @IrisVanRooij Jun 28
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      Replying to @djnavarro @Ivuoma @seriousssam

      Can also be something akin to survivor bias and/or self-selection? That is, that the problematic nature of the norm and how it disproportionately affect URMs, is being underestimated by URM who do succeed with the norm in place, since they happened to suffer less from it.

      1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
    10. Danielle Navarro‏ @djnavarro Jun 28
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @IrisVanRooij @Ivuoma @seriousssam

      Makes sense, yeah.

      1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
      Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ‏ @o_guest Jun 28
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @djnavarro @IrisVanRooij and

      It's really common. It can be a way for the person to easily curry favour. It used to be known as special snowflakes syndrome, in general and before the alright took the phrase, or for women: "I'm not like other girls".

      11:30 PM - 28 Jun 2019
      • 4 Likes
      • Iris van Rooij Dr. Christina Bergmann Dale Maschette 🐟🧗‍♂️ Samer Sabri
      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
        1. New conversation
        2. Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ‏ @o_guest Jun 28
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @o_guest @djnavarro and

          Altright not alright. LOL what a typo. I need coffee. 🤣

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        3. Samer Sabri‏ @seriousssam Jun 28
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @o_guest @djnavarro and

          I've heard the I'm not like other girls from women who were sick of being shuffled into women's events. Altright capitalising on this whole thing big time but the alienation is real often bcz urm type paradigms rely on labeling. I don't have a good solution or point but 1/2

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Samer Sabri‏ @seriousssam Jun 28
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @seriousssam @o_guest and

          There's more to it, the alienation is real and not constrained to white men. Language & non-US citizens have their own issues that get put to sleep. Add this ambiguity & unease to the natural tendency of people to like rules that work for them and I think that explains a lot. 2/2

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ‏ @o_guest Jun 28
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @seriousssam @djnavarro and

          In my experience "I'm not like other girls" is almost always internalised sexism and a way to survive in a world where you need people to like you but you believe there's zero space at the level in the hierarchy you want to get to for women.

          2 replies 1 retweet 4 likes
        6. Samer Sabri‏ @seriousssam Jun 29
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @o_guest @djnavarro and

          Collective and individual... There's a gap. Women who are in good positions now did it in a tough env. You make a good point. You have to be a bit manipulative to get people to your side. That last sentence is not directly related but I hope it makes sense why I'm saying it.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ‏ @o_guest Jun 29
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @seriousssam @djnavarro and

          I also think the USA's issues, how they deal with minorities, might not perfectly map on to other places. I personally like labels — without them I don't understand the world. I assume you mean labels applied without consent & in a place like the USA where collectivism is low.

          1 reply 1 retweet 1 like
        8. Samer Sabri‏ @seriousssam Jun 29
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @o_guest @djnavarro and

          I think they cut both ways but you need them to rectify invisible walls and rules that exclude. But the more label centric your stuff is the more you're redefining a broken system. My experience is definitely centered in the US I lived there pretty much the last 10y. 1/2

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        9. Samer Sabri‏ @seriousssam Jun 29
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @seriousssam @o_guest and

          Mental health is a good analog to provoke thought but doesn't map super well. Now it's more OK to be depressed but much harder if you have anything else. So that's not enough for example. 2/2

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
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