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o_guest's profile
Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ
Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ
Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ
@o_guest

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Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ

@o_guest

• goth gremlin • computational cognitive/neuroscience modeling • geek & techish Cypriot • plant aficionada • came up with #bropenscience • http://neuroplausible.com  •

Τότεναμ, Λονδίνο & Cyprus
olivia.science
Joined October 2015

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    1. श्रवण वसिष्ठ / Shravan Vasishth‏ @shravanvasishth Jun 14
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      I think the answers for many are yes, no, and no. Many people want creators of data to get credit as co-authors, which I support in principle. But I have heard nobody want creators of models or software to get credit as co-authors. Wondering why.

      5 replies 0 retweets 10 likes
      Show this thread
    2. Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ‏ @o_guest Jun 15
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      Replying to @shravanvasishth

      I have seen that too. Probably because most people collect data and so know it's hard but often I hear people say modelling and programming is easy for us. I don't know why they say that as it's the same group who don't think it's easy when they have to do it.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    3. Matt Krause‏ @prokraustinator Jun 15
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      Replying to @o_guest @shravanvasishth

      Both are hard, but experiments are riskier: you can spend years breeding and training animals and end up with nothing at all, not even an uninteresting or null result. It would take spectacularly bad planning for that to happen while modeling.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    4. Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ‏ @o_guest Jun 15
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      Replying to @prokraustinator @shravanvasishth

      I don't understand what you all mean when you say this, so I have at least 4 modeling projects over the past decade which are unpublished, some unpublishable. And I know many modelers in similar situations.

      1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
    5. Matt Krause‏ @prokraustinator Jun 15
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      Replying to @o_guest @shravanvasishth

      I spent a year and a half training a monkey to perform a fairly complicated behavioral task. It died (of unrelated natural causes) before I had collected more than a handful of cells.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    6. Matt Krause‏ @prokraustinator Jun 15
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      Replying to @prokraustinator @o_guest @shravanvasishth

      That’s much different, IMHO, from working on something for a while, deciding its uninteresting, and moving on.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    7. Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ‏ @o_guest Jun 15
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      Replying to @prokraustinator @shravanvasishth

      I didn't say it's uninteresting. I said I can't publish it. Anyway, I don't understand why we have to talk like data collection is harder, riskier, etc. I don't think it's a comparison that makes sense.

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
    8. Matt Krause‏ @prokraustinator Jun 15
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      Replying to @o_guest @shravanvasishth

      It’s not a total order or contest. I’m trying to explain why experimentalists are often a bit...protective of data—it feels like there’s a lot more room for things to go randomly and catastrophically wrong at any moment, wiping out all our effort so far.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    9. Matt Krause‏ @prokraustinator Jun 15
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      Replying to @prokraustinator @o_guest @shravanvasishth

      It would take years and $$$ to recover from a few TB bacteria in the animal house. OTOH, barring a worldwide collapse, I can reboot all of our analysis and modeling stuff with a ‘git clone’ and a coffee.

      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
    10. Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ‏ @o_guest Jun 15
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      Replying to @prokraustinator @shravanvasishth

      Recovering code isn't the same as recovering computational experiments nor the same as publishing them. All I asked is why people think modelers are harming you, it's not zero sum AFAIK, when it's modelers who are at a disadvantage in terms of authorship and recognition?

      1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
      Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ‏ @o_guest Jun 15
      • Report Tweet
      Replying to @o_guest @prokraustinator @shravanvasishth

      Why do non-modelling people feel the need for example to tell me that modelling is easy? When they are probably from the same group who say modelling is hard? Why? I don't say anything is easy about data collection.

      6:21 AM - 15 Jun 2019
      • 1 Like
      • Esther Mondragón
      3 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        1. New conversation
        2. Matt Krause‏ @prokraustinator Jun 15
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @o_guest @shravanvasishth

          Again, it’s not the difficulty level. BOTH ARE HARD. It’s the level of control. If your code is hard to debug, that’s on you—you wrote it! If you have a hard time publishing something, you picked the topic. Exp have these problems too, obviously.

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ‏ @o_guest Jun 15
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @prokraustinator @shravanvasishth

          I still don't get it. Why are non-modellers always behaving like it's zero sum? Also... all debugging is hard and not all code is single-developer code.

          1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes
        4. Esther Mondragón‏ @twitemp1 Jun 15
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          Replying to @o_guest @prokraustinator @shravanvasishth

          We are talking about *authorship*, it should be obvious that whoever builds a model authors it, that authorship does not rely on the difficulty or riks entailed in a task. However, and talking as both empirical (animal) scientist and modeller, I don't think that

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
        5. Esther Mondragón‏ @twitemp1 Jun 15
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          Replying to @twitemp1 @o_guest and

          using others' models, data or methods directly qualifies someone as co-author. IMO, it would depend on their implication on that specific study. Your research is not an investment in others'

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        6. Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ‏ @o_guest Jun 15
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @twitemp1 @prokraustinator @shravanvasishth

          Yeah, totally agreed. I do think @shravanvasishth is picking up a on real thing though were data collectors are more protective than modellers. And modellers do get very little recognition in general. Many relegated to middle author almost always.

          2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
        7. Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ‏ @o_guest Jun 15
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @o_guest @twitemp1 and

          This is why I do very little when I am asked to model something for people now, because I know I will be middle author even if I do a tonne of modelling.

          2 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        8. Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ‏ @o_guest Jun 15
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @o_guest @twitemp1 and

          The only way as a modeller I can be first author is if I don't allow any data-collectors to be involved. 🤣

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        9. Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ‏ @o_guest Jun 15
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @o_guest @twitemp1 and

          So just being 100% a data parasite and/or collecting the data myself.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        10. 3 more replies
        1. Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ‏ @o_guest Jun 15
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @o_guest @prokraustinator @shravanvasishth

          Also debugging and designing complex code isn't easy...

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
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        1. New conversation
        2. Matt Krause‏ @prokraustinator Jun 15
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          Replying to @o_guest @shravanvasishth

          I have literally never said that. I spend about 1/2 my time on analysis and modeling stuff and realize exactly how hard it is. That part of my life feels limited by my time and abilities, rather than the happenstance of experiments. That randomness has career implications too...

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        3. Olivia Guest | Ολίβια Γκεστ‏ @o_guest Jun 15
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @prokraustinator @shravanvasishth

          You didn't yourself, no. I thought this thread is about the group-level dynamics and you wanted to chat to me about them since I and the OP asked?

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        4. Matt Krause‏ @prokraustinator Jun 15
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @o_guest @shravanvasishth

          Ok, so then....My point is these risks make experimentalists territorial. Offering to collaborate, even when not ‘legally’ necessary, defuses that feeling and, more importantly, often yields a better paper (or at least prevents people from chasing artifacts).

          1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
        5. John Henderson‏ @JhendersonIMB Jun 15
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          Replying to @prokraustinator @o_guest @shravanvasishth

          I always think the kind thing to do is to ask the originator if they would like to collaborate. Like if I give my neighbor apricots from my tree, they're free to make and eat an apricot torte, but it's always nice if they share a slice with me.

          1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        6. श्रवण वसिष्ठ / Shravan Vasishth‏ @shravanvasishth Jun 15
          • Report Tweet
          Replying to @JhendersonIMB @prokraustinator @o_guest

          Someone pointed out on this thread that what that collaboration would do is destroy the independence of the researcher who may be demonstrating problems in the original claims. That is a killer argument against having the orig. author as collaborator.

          2 replies 0 retweets 0 likes
        7. John Henderson‏ @JhendersonIMB Jun 15
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          Replying to @shravanvasishth @prokraustinator @o_guest

          I guess it depends on your view of science, and of human nature.

          0 replies 0 retweets 1 like
        8. End of conversation

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