But the first three are preparatory for Dzogchen. Their results are the Ting-ngé-dzin (Tib translation of Samadhi) which are in Dzogchen Sem-dé.
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Replying to @_awbery_ @SarahAMcManus and
interesting. Chagmé Rinpoche taught me in a system that doesn't include sems de or klong de.
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Semde and longde were almost entirely displaced by menngakde (for interesting historical reasons partly explained in David Germano’s Funerary Transformation paper). They persisted only in a handful of minor lineages.
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Replying to @Meaningness @chagmed and
Huh, so that seems like it might mean that the dzogchen line of the diagram above would only be accurate for... Aro? Nyingma? Wondering what the others would look like...
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Replying to @Malcolm_Ocean @chagmed and
That line expresses the correspondences of the phases of the four naljors semde ngondro with other yanas. That ngondro is not, itself, Dzogchen. And, the phases only correspond with the other yanas in a functional, metaphorical sense (that shine’s result is emptiness, etc).
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Replying to @Meaningness @Malcolm_Ocean and
Reading back over this thread I see that
@_awbery_ already said this!2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes -
Replying to @Meaningness @Malcolm_Ocean and
Also I see I didn’t answer your actual question, which is what a path diagram would look like for other lineages that don’t have Dzogchen. Generally they have a highly sequential curriculum through tantra; the details depend on the sect.
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Replying to @Meaningness @Malcolm_Ocean and
Also
@_awbery_ has just pointed out to me that, as a matter of practice, the three dé *are* functionally sequential, particularly if you access Dzogchen via the sem-dé ngöndro.1 reply 0 retweets 2 likes -
Replying to @Meaningness @Malcolm_Ocean and
There’s a natural sequence from ‘lots of explanation/concept/description’ (sem-dé) through ‘less description/a bit cryptic/find it in the body’ (long-dé) to ‘just get it spontaneously’ (men-ngak-dé).
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Replying to @_awbery_ @Meaningness and
More familiarity with the first helps access the next, and so on. Tho they each can be approached and practiced in their own right without the others too.
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Are there distinct ngöndro practices for longde as there are for semde and mengakde? I’ve never come across them if they exist, but wouldn’t surprise me
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Replying to @misen__ @Meaningness and
Ah yes, there are extant Long-dé ngöndro, connected to familiarisation with form/emptiness aspects of rTsal, as you might expect! Afaik they are only taught within Long-dé gTér lineages, have never seen any publicly available.
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I have come across Long-dé lineages occasionally, mostly while staying in Bodha. They are like hidden gems, usually quite small, recently revealed and continued by a few dedicated practitioners.
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