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The word that keeps coming up for me here is enchantment. If realizations of emptiness seem dry and stale, then there are more levels of our psychology (perhaps unconscious) that are still solid and rigid. Enchantment is a signpost that we are moving in the right direction
I found the conversation fascinating. I think a big part of this is in how emptiness is framed - how we are taught and how we represent it back to ourselves. This is a big reason why I was attracted to Mahamudra/Dzogchen teachings: theres a poetic richness.
Jason, what you said reminds me of something Shinzen said about emptiness that it’s like biting into an apple, initially flat and tasteless, but then sweet and rich and nourishing. I suspect it’s not how emptiness ‘is’, but presenting it that way sets the groove in our psyche.
I thought Rob’s distinction from tantra was curious - obviously it is different in a bunch of ways, but it seems to have a similar sort of function in terms of going beyond emptiness - ‘free to play’ as he said. Anyway, thanks for doing the podcast - super interesting stuff.
Yes! Rob said in both conversations that what enabled him to create the imaginal was practicing with a particular conception of emptiness and taking it all the way. Without this clarity in conception, the discovery of the imaginal would not have been possible.
Right! I think the tendancy to simplify and secularize is a good one. Differentiation is helpful and necessary. But eventually there needs to be reintegration. As Rob would say, of desire, relationships, activism, poetry, etc., things that might have been discarded previously
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