Mi'sen

So, things I agree with: - Only an accomplished practitioner can say what something is really like, experientially. Things I disagree with: - Accomplished practitioners are qualified to deal in absolutes. How do they know what does or doesn't end? I don't see how they could.

They can't know it eternally. They can know it for years, and if you believe in spiritual bodies (and if you don't most of cultivation Buddhism and Hinduism is bullshit to you), then you can speak for centuries and millenia at the least.

I question that premise. I certainly believe in elite-level athleticism, but most elite athletes are strongly deluded about their own skills. It's seemingly of benefit to their practice.

In my youth I was a very very good runner. The difference between the actual elites and the very good is heartbreakingly large. I could multiple lap good non runners. The world level guy could lap me. Most people never get to a level where they can even understand the gap.

but spiritual practice is more like acrobatics. There are break points: at certain levels of acrobatic skills you can do discrete actions that lesser acrobats or ordinary people can't even do. You aren't just faster by X seconds, or stronger.

Thanks you two for having this conversation in open feed, interesting stuff.

My entire reasoning for spouting my opinionated BS openly, is that I have many very smart followers eager to challenge it. ;)

Seems like a good state of affairs! It’s also cool to see how people approach this stuff differently - I find it helps me notice blind spots in my own practice/life/behaviour etc.