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And socialists would say that in those countries the means of production were truly in the hands of the workers because they weren't sufficiently democratic. I think both arguments are unsubstantive deflections aiming to obscure the larger point critics are making.
yes and the seismic difference between our positions is the version of socialism they are deflecting away from maoist death camps with is imaginary, whereas the market economies i am talking about exist today
If you ask Bernie Sanders what democratic socialist countries he would like to deflect away from he will surely name some that in Europe that are not imaginary.
And you will say they are not sufficiently socialist because although they have vastly more employee ownership and socialized profits, it's not enough for xyz reason. And again we will split hairs in order to obscure the larger point.
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