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michael_nielsen's profile
michael_nielsen
michael_nielsen
michael_nielsen
@michael_nielsen

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michael_nielsen

@michael_nielsen

Searching for the numinous. Co-purveyor of https://quantum.country/ 

San Francisco, CA
michaelnielsen.org
Joined July 2008

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    michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Nov 3
    • Report Tweet

    On the oddly pervasive notion of the conservation of energypic.twitter.com/j0iWw1sbTY

    12:13 PM - 3 Nov 2019
    • 23 Retweets
    • 225 Likes
    • Eigil Rischel Leon Hewer Salil Mishra Dilsat Bilal Yuksel Nicola Farenga Manoel Galdino गणेश। J.O. roon
    21 replies 23 retweets 225 likes
      1. New conversation
      2. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Nov 3
        • Report Tweet

        michael_nielsen Retweeted John Carlos Baez

        Well, I goofed. Energy conservation in GR turns out to be subtle, and it's certainly not right to flatly say energy is conserved. Quite a few people pointed this out. Here's a couple of samples, at different levels of explanation:https://twitter.com/johncarlosbaez/status/1191164917597917184 …

        michael_nielsen added,

        John Carlos Baez @johncarlosbaez
        Replying to @michael_nielsen
        Energy is conserved in theories where 1) symmetries give conservation laws and 2) time translation is a symmetry. It's not conserved in the Big Bang cosmology, where 2) fails.
        1 reply 1 retweet 26 likes
        Show this thread
      3. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Nov 3
        • Report Tweet

        michael_nielsen Retweeted Claudio Paganini

        And a nice discussion here (and in followups):https://twitter.com/the_happyproton/status/1191107133628207106 …

        michael_nielsen added,

        Claudio Paganini @the_happyproton
        Replying to @seanmcarroll @michael_nielsen @QiaochuYuan
        The fact that energy is not conserved in an expanding universe is actually what makes the ground state (GS) special. In a fix cavity a system would go forth and back between an excited state and a GS + photon state. The redshift prevents this on universal scales.
        1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
        Show this thread
      4. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Nov 3
        • Report Tweet

        It is, nonetheless, possible to make some sense of the notion of energy conservation in GR. Here's an overview: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/energy_gr.html … (also by @johncarlosbaez and collaborator).

        1 reply 1 retweet 10 likes
        Show this thread
      5. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Nov 3
        • Report Tweet

        There's also a set of ideas known as the ADM formalism, a so-called Hamiltonian formulation of GR. (The Hamiltonian is a sort of energy function). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM_formalism …

        1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
        Show this thread
      6. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Nov 3
        • Report Tweet

        These caveats don't make my original statement correct! But they are useful context, a sense in which the notion of energy (or a Hamiltonian) is correct in general relativity.

        1 reply 0 retweets 1 like
        Show this thread
      7. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Nov 3
        • Report Tweet

        Another topic: some people are replying "Isn't this Noether's theorem?" But that misses the the point. Of course, once you're in Lagrangian mechanics & have time-translation invariance, conservation follows. And there's an analogous quantum argument...

        1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
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      8. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Nov 3
        • Report Tweet

        ... but assuming all that structure begs the question.

        3 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
        Show this thread
      9. End of conversation
      1. New conversation
      2. John Carlos Baez‏ @johncarlosbaez Nov 3
        • Report Tweet
        Replying to @michael_nielsen

        Energy is conserved in theories where 1) symmetries give conservation laws and 2) time translation is a symmetry. It's not conserved in the Big Bang cosmology, where 2) fails.

        10 replies 9 retweets 69 likes
      3. 6 more replies
      1. New conversation
      2. QC‏ @QiaochuYuan Nov 3
        • Report Tweet
        Replying to @michael_nielsen

        one might argue that energy ought to be that which is conserved (by time evolution) by definition; you can sorta make this precise using noether's theorem, although that might be circular

        1 reply 0 retweets 12 likes
      3. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Nov 3
        • Report Tweet
        Replying to @QiaochuYuan

        Noether's theorem is a consequence of Lagrangian mechanics, so it's sorta begging the question. In some sense, though, you can get energy conservation in both GR and NM this way, which I guess is a good point!

        4 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
      4. 3 more replies

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