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michael_nielsen
michael_nielsen
michael_nielsen
@michael_nielsen

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michael_nielsen

@michael_nielsen

Searching for the numinous. Co-purveyor of https://quantum.country/ 

San Francisco, CA
michaelnielsen.org
Joined July 2008

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    1. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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      So a modern phrasing of the question might be: how to invent arabic numerals, assuming you only know roman numerals?

      2 replies 1 retweet 36 likes
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    2. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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      To be clear, I'm not talking here about delving into the actual history of arabic numerals. That's long and complex and fascinating, but this is a different kind of challenge.

      2 replies 0 retweets 16 likes
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    3. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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      What I'm talking about is a kind of discovery fiction, a plausible line of reasoning that might have led you to the discovery of arabic numerals, with roughly the set of raw materials on hand in ancient rome.

      5 replies 1 retweet 55 likes
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    4. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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      I spent quite a bit of time trying to find such a discovery fiction. Originally, I started from the question "If we changed notation [from roman numerals] might there be an easier way to multiply?"

      2 replies 0 retweets 22 likes
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    5. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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      But there's a different starting point, another rather natural question, that is more promising. It's to ask: how many possible distinct _words_ are there of any given length?

      1 reply 0 retweets 20 likes
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    6. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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      Now, the roman alphabet was much like our modern alphabet, but with a few differences. It had 23 characters, mostly the same as ours today: ABC.... Z (but with a few differences, eg no J).

      2 replies 0 retweets 8 likes
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    7. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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      How many words are there of length 2 in this alphabet? Well, the possible words are AA, AB, AC... AZ, followed by BA, BB, BC, ..., BZ. Then CA, CB,..., CZ.

      1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
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    8. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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      Obviously, that means there are 23 times 23 = 529 possible "words" of length 2. Of course, multiplication was actually pretty tricky for the romans (mostly because they didn't have arabic numerals!) But figuring this out was well within their ken.

      1 reply 1 retweet 10 likes
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    9. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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      Stated in roman numerals: there are DIXXX possible words of length II in the roman alphabet.

      2 replies 0 retweets 11 likes
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    10. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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      What about words of length III? Well, we can just enumerate again: AAA, AAB, AAC, ...., AAZ, ABA, ABB, ... ABZ. Keep going, you get to BAA, BAB. And so on. It's not too difficult to see the answer is 23 x 23 x 23.

      1 reply 0 retweets 8 likes
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      michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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      Unfortunately, 23 x 23 x 23 (= 12,167) was starting to stress the roman numeral system. They had ways of dealing with such numbers, but it got pretty convoluted. The system was mostly designed to work up to a few thousand.

      1:37 PM - 18 Sep 2019
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        2. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          The reason was that the basic strategy behind roman numerals is to keep introducing new symbols as you get to larger and larger numbers. That's okay for a while, but eventually breaks down.

          1 reply 0 retweets 15 likes
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        3. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          So a curious thing about the word-counting problem is that you get large numbers of different possible words, without needing to introduce new symbols. That's interesting if you've been bugged by the need to introduce new symbols to describe large numbers.

          2 replies 0 retweets 19 likes
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        4. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          It's also interesting that you get very large numbers of different possible words, even with very short strings.

          3 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
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        5. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          Now, if you were playful, you might wonder a bit about using strings of letters to _represent_ numbers. One way would be to identify I with A, II with B, and so on, through XXIII -> Z.

          1 reply 0 retweets 8 likes
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        6. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          You could just continue from there: XXIV -> AA. XXV -> AB, and so on. Symbolically: yz -> y*23 + z, where y and z are just single letters.

          1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
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        7. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          Of course, this isn't notation the romans would have used. But the ideas - multiplication, equality, addition, are all things the romans understood. It's not too far a stretch.

          2 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
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        8. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          What about with three digits? Well, with two digits you get up to 23+23*23. So we have: xyz -> x*(23+23*23)+y*23+z. I must admit, that seems slightly ugly to me, and it gets uglier with longer words.

          2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
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        9. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          Let's try something slightly different - a tad less obvious, but also prettier. Let's imagine that instead of numbers of variable length, we have just a single universal counter, starting at: .....AAAAAA

          2 replies 0 retweets 4 likes
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        10. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          We increment by 1 and get to: ...AAAAAB. And then by 1 more and get to: ...AAAAAC. And so on.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
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        11. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          Of course, in practice we don't want to write out all the A's on the left. So we'll just adopt the convention of taking those as given. In other words, something like: BD really means ...AAAABD, but the A's on the left are implied.

          1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
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        12. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          Now there's a bit of a problem, which is this convention makes ...AAAA be written as just a blank. Obviously that would be unreadable. So we'll introduce an exception: for that, we'll write A, just as a kind of placeholder.

          1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
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        13. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          I don't claim, by the way, that this "universal counter" approach is necessarily _more_ obvious than what we were doing earlier. But it's at least plausible as an alternate. And it has the benefit that it's an attractively unified system.

          1 reply 0 retweets 5 likes
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        14. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          Okay, so the way counting goes is: A, B, C, ..., Z, BA, BB, BC,...., and eventually on to BAA, BAB, and so on.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
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        15. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          In this system, xy -> (x-1)*23+y. And xyz -> (x-1)*23*23+(y-1)*23+z. Those seem satisfyingly neat, and the pattern continues.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
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        16. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          There is still a slightly ugly thing, which is the -1 terms, which show up over and over again. We could get rid of those if we decided to start counting at 1 -> B, 2 -> C, etc.

          2 replies 0 retweets 2 likes
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        17. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          If we did that, then we'd have xy -> x*23+y, xyz -> x*23*23+y*23+z, and so on for longer strings. That's even simpler, though A is now playing pretty much the role of a placeholder.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
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        18. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          At this point a clever designer might be bugged by the use of the alphabet in this number representation. After all, the alphabet is already being used for words! So it'd be better to switch to different symbols to prevent confusion.

          1 reply 0 retweets 6 likes
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        19. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          The alternate symbols we use are pretty arbitrary. Let's go for A -> 0, B -> 1, C -> 2, and so on. Of course, we could introduce 23 new symbols. But the 23 is actually pretty arbitrary. So let's use just 10 symbols: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.

          1 reply 0 retweets 7 likes
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        20. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          (Of course, the numeric base we use is pretty uninteresting. Base 10 turns out to have some nice advantages, and also some slight problems. But I think this really is an accidental piece of history.)

          2 replies 0 retweets 7 likes
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        21. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          With these choices, our number representation is: xyz -> x*10*10+y*10+z. And so on, for larger numbers.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
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        22. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          We're very _used to_ this kind of representation. But there's nothing obvious about it at all. Every single thing in the representation can be questioned, and possibly changed. It's fun to try some experiments!

          1 reply 0 retweets 9 likes
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        23. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          One particularly amusing thing: consider the numbers 132 and 123. The 2 actually has a very different meaning in those two numbers. The fact that _location matters_ is a deep idea.

          2 replies 1 retweet 11 likes
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        24. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          (I've glossed over 0 in various ways in this account. And over the fact that place-number system pre-dated the romans. If I was more conscientious I'd have talked more about these - they're incredibly deep ideas - but this thread is already long, so I'll keep glossing.)

          2 replies 0 retweets 6 likes
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        25. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          At this point we have a new numeral system. It's nice in a couple of ways when compared to roman numerals - it doesn't need new symbols to represent larger numbers, and it's extremely compact.

          1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
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        26. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          Still, those things perhaps don't seem that important. Certainly not worth replacing an entire piece of intellectual infrastructure with!

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
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        27. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          But where this number system really shines is in simplifying certain other things you might want to do. For instance, consider addition of the numbers wx and yz.

          1 reply 0 retweets 4 likes
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        28. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          We have wx + yz = (w*10+x) + (y*10+z) = (w+y)*10 + (x+z). Fiddle with this for a while - it's more work than I want to go through here - and you eventually recover the grade school algorithm for adding two-digit numbers. Do some more work, & you get the n-digit algorithm.

          1 reply 0 retweets 3 likes
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        29. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          There's a miracle going on here, one we don't notice b/c it's so familiar: I pointed out above that the numerals have very different meanings, depending on their location. But despite this, in the grade-school algorithm we use the _same rules_ for addition, regardless of place!

          2 replies 1 retweet 11 likes
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        30. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          E.g., in computing 27+38 at some point in the computation we'll use 2+3 = 5; in computing 72+83 at some point we'll also use 2+3=5. That's despite the fact that the 2 and the 3 in the first sum have a very different meaning than in the second sum!

          2 replies 0 retweets 5 likes
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        31. michael_nielsen‏ @michael_nielsen Sep 18
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          What's responsible for this astonishing fact? If you look back at the reasoning above, you see it's a consequence of associativity, commutativity, and distributivity. That's a pretty huge set of things! And it makes addition _really_ nice in this representation.

          2 replies 0 retweets 8 likes
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